Do you believe in God?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Criptex, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. Criptex

    Criptex New Member

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    yeah... that's the point, if we are arguing about God or science, we have to understand that science goes along with the idea of a superior being, and like someone a few post before said... Einstain did good believing in God.

    Life without God is empty, is not because man have the natural desire to believe in something, it's because the bible says that we are created to praise God, and the first human used to walk with God in the Eden and the was meant to praise him and live depending his whole life on him, but when Eva and him sinned, God close their spiritual eyes, but he left our spirit.
    Also we're formed by 3 parts, body, spirit and soul, so just, think... can you see your spirit? or your soul? but is it real? the fact that you can see it, doesn't alter the reality.
    So..............
    Science and God, they get along well, Science is made by God, He's the supreme Scientist, Doctor, Architect, etc. etc. you can see it every day since the moment you open your eyes.
     
  2. ichwar

    ichwar Community Advocate Community Support

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    Good point
     
  3. Cymro

    Cymro New Member

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    Jupiter being a huge graivty well takes care of that aspect. You don't find many people worshipping it though.

    Would you like it if a Hindu said to you "We've got 330,000 gods, you've got one. Your life sounds next to hopeless to me"? Probably not.

    On a similar note, what would you do if a member of the Hindu, Shinto, Bahá'i, Sikh, Ásatrú or Taoist religions tried to convert you to his religion, and claimed that his was the truth and also said that you had no way of disproving it?
     
  4. ichwar

    ichwar Community Advocate Community Support

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    330,000 gods, sounds about as hopeless as no gods to me.

    [/quote]On a similar note, what would you do if a member of the Hindu, Shinto, Bahá'i, Sikh, Ásatrú or Taoist religions tried to convert you to his religion, and claimed that his was the truth and also said that you had no way of disproving it?[/quote]

    I would promptly tell him that I did have a way to disprove it.
     
  5. truthguild

    truthguild New Member

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    no point in the bible ever claims the light of the first day is light given off by god. if it did, then you would have to accept that he only gives off light about half the time. the claim that the light spoken of in genesis prior to the sun is god is nothing more than an excuse imagined up by an apologist to try to explain away a biblical inconsistancy.
    the bible doesn't claim satan was an angel - that's dogma that came up in the early days of christianity. biblical scholars debate as to whether satan is Baal or Beelzebub. in either case, Baal is a god of the Babylonian pantheon, while Beelzebub is a bastardizattion of Ba'al ZeBul (the Lord on High). both were gods. the bible even refers to satan as the god of this world.
    that level of power would define him as a god.
    this is fairly accurate, except 1 point - they don't see satan as an entity at all, but as symbolic of the id. they take satan from the hebrew Ha'Satan, which simply means "opposer".
     
  6. Criptex

    Criptex New Member

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    Ok, I think this is because jupiter didn't give his son so the world could have a hope of salvation, and jupiter did not create you?

    Is not about the number of gods, is about how empty is your life with the one that you have, or if you don't have any, and you are talking about hindues right?

    "God is, even though the whole world deny him. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self-sustained."
    Mohandas Gandhi

    The bible specifies do not make image of anything else that is in earth or below it... any other "god" created by human minds is consider as idolatry.
     
  7. gali98

    gali98 New Member

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    Okay. I'm going to throw in my two cents here. First Let me say that I do believe in God. I believe his name is Jesus, and that he is the only God. All others are simply beings created from the minds of men. I figure that will give you a considerable guess at my views. This is a bit long, I apologize.


    First on the subject of the separation of Light and Darkness: He was not talking about Light as in physical light as we see it, but light in the sense of separating goodness from evil.

    On the subject of Satan:
    The bible does not specifically call Satan an angel, but gives many clues alluding to the fact.
    There are others also (In Job 1 and 2 that allude to this fact.)
    That being said, Satan IS NOT a God when classifying a god as an omnipotent or omnipresent being.
    A quick aside:
    Anything can be a "god" to a person. Satan can be a "god." Football can be a "god." Sex can be a "god." Obama can be a "god." But those gods are not The God (Jesus) and have no power over him. That is not to say that Satan does not have power - he does - and the bible is clear about that. But it is just as clear that his power is weak compared to God.
    Here are several points:
    Satan was created - God has always existed
    Satan is not omnipotent (all powerful) - God is
    Satan is not omnipresent (able to be all places at once) - God is
    Satan is not omniscient (all knowing)- God is
    Satan is not sovereign - God is.
    Satan is given power over sinners because of their sin, but a sinner is forgiven by God (at any point - it is their choice to ask) and his sins are forgiven and clean when he asks. At baptism, his sins are "washed" away. and then, this former sinner can receive the Holy Ghost - God's spirit living inside a person. (This is not another God, but a manifestation of The God Jesus)
    With God's spirit living inside of a person, sin nor satan has power over that person. He can tempt, but he has no power over his actions.
    So maybe not so quick.. Moving on:

    I'm seeing in a lot of places in this discussion about science. People seem to think that Science trumps religion because Science is fact, while religion is based on emotions and things like that. I'm afraid that is just not the truth. Science is a religion. True, scientists (though not all) try to base all knowledge on fact, but the fact is that we know so little about our Universe. I believe in a God who has been proven many times. You believe in system of observation and hypothesis-making that tries to explain what we see. You want proof that God exists, and you will not find solid proof. As long as you are trying to find specific proof and will not believe until that point, you will not be able to prove God exists. You have to believe. You have to have faith.
    However, with that being said, Science has not in one case, ever proven that God DOES NOT exist. You like to quote your theories and such, but for everyone there has been experiments which disprove those theories. Why don't most people hear about these theories? It goes back to science being a religion. Those who do not support the major anti-creationist theories are shut up quickly and put on the back burner.

    A case-in-point example (though not really anti-creationist) is the idea of global warming. Folks, it has been proven many times that we are simply in a cycle of fluctuating temperatures. The rise in global temperatures is simply part of this cycle. The human creation of carbon emissions, while maybe increasing the temperatures a slight bit (unnoticeable) do not have anything to do with this cycle. It is "fact." Yet many people in this nation (America) believe that we as humans are horribly destroying our environment with greenhouse gases. Al Gore gets the Noble Peace Prize for his involvement with the movement, and it is a proven fake. Proven with "science." And yet America is indoctrinated by the media, the children in schools that science is king. And they put accept what they want, and throw out the rest, fact or not.

    The sad truth is that it does not take a really bright person to see this. People do not want to be wrong, so they invent a way of passing the blame.


    I believe in God because of what he has done in my life. I have felt him. I have seen his effect on my life, and others. I have heard his voice, felt his direction. I am happy. I do not understand many things about God. I do not understand most things about him. But I know this: He loves me. More than anyone else loves me. He loves you. He loves everyone. When all my friends leave me, and the world seems to be crashing down around me, and there seems no way out, My God is there with me - there for me. He won't leave me.

    Let me put a question out to all you who say you do not believe. Who will be there for you?

    Kory
     
  8. Criptex

    Criptex New Member

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    The bible doesn't specifies wheter that light is from God or not, because it is self explanatory... If there was nothing more than water, land, darkness and the Spirit of God, it is common sense that the light came out of the spirit of God, and the bible supports the fact that the Spirit of God, in one of it's forms, can produce light.
    Exodus 34 29-35 explains a little bit the magnitude of the light that God, iradiates.

    Yes, Lucifer, was the angel of the morning star, he was abobe the arcangels, and the angels, but he was an angel.
    When he tries to compare himself to God, then God knows that there's evil in him,
    This is because the bible in many locations specifies that there's only 1 God, that's the ultimate commendment; Love your Lor God with everything you have. not your gods, not nobody, Your God.
    And when the bible refers at the king of this world, is because Satan has permission to manipulate some of the things that happen in this world. and Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world, because his kingdom is the kingdom of the heavens, and according to the bible we are not from this world neither. because as a son of God, everything the world can offer is trash compared with the salvation.
     
  9. truthguild

    truthguild New Member

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    science cannot, and therefore does not, make any comment regarding the supernatural.
    let's test this idea. i flew to chicago today. not in an aircraft of any sort, i just flew like superman. this is true and thus i don't need to prove it. sounds pretty absurd if you ask me if someone came to me with that claim, my immediate response would be to ask for evidence.
    the only way we have to identify truth is with objective evidence. you can't know something is true any other way.

    then show me the evidence of this divine power that is governing us.
     
  10. Criptex

    Criptex New Member

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    Exactly, God doesn't need human evidence to be God, He gives you hope when you don't have any, He stays with you even if everybody abandons you. He fills your life, and you can feel His love. and once you meet him, there's no way you can deny Him.
     
  11. truthguild

    truthguild New Member

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    no, the common sense approach based on the genesis account is that the light for day is the light of the sun - the actual distinguishing factor between day and night. claiming it is the light of god is nothing more than apologetics to explain away an inconsistancy.



    no, the one and only time the name lucifer is ever used in the bible is a sarcastic reference to the king of babylon - a human being.
    so much for omniscience
    and yet in others, it claims more than one god - "let us make them in our image - male and female
    which could also mean there are no gods, since i have none.
    and yet, according to the bible, we are golems - animated dirt.
     
  12. Kayos

    Kayos Community Advocate Community Support

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    With so many explanations being thrown around I don't believe anyone was suppose to know the true meaning behind the words. They are intentionally left vague so that it could be interpreted in whatever way they choose just so that it will fit into the argument at hand.


    You're not entirely correct. Yes, religion is based on faith and nothing else but science is based on evidence.

    You're mistaken then.

    You couldn't be more wrong.

    Let me quote something from this article:

    Science is not simply a database of knowledge. It’s a method, a way of finding this knowledge. Observe, hypothesize, predict, observe, revise. Science is provisional; it’s always open to improvement. Science is even subject to itself. If the method itself didn’t work, we’d see it. Our computers wouldn’t work (OK, bad example), our space probes wouldn’t get off the ground, our electronics wouldn’t work, our medicine wouldn’t work. Yet, all these things do in fact function, spectacularly well. Science is a check on itself, which is why it is such an astonishingly powerful way of understanding reality.

    And that right there is where science and religion part ways. Science is not based on faith. Science is based on evidence. We have evidence it works, vast amounts of it, billions of individual pieces that fit together into a tapestry of reality. That is the critical difference. Faith, as it is interpreted by most religions, is not evidence-based, and is generally held tightly even despite evidence against it. In many cases, faith is even reinforced when evidence is found contrary to it.

    To say that we have to take science on faith is such a gross misunderstanding of how science works that it can only be uttered by someone who is wholly ignorant of how reality works.



    If it's been proven so many times then where is this proof?


    It's a proven system.


    Because there is none.


    I'd like any proof. Something that could be physical evidence.


    No, I don't.


    Really? You mean the fact that there is zero evidence of a "God" or anything else overseeing our lives, being omnipresent? How can there be proof when the thing in question doesn't exist in the first place?

    The real question is that other than faith, how can you prove that a "God" exists?



    Really? Like what?


    Oh that's why, that false view on science.


    Uh, ok...


    The thing with a theory is that it's not a scientific law. Theories can change according to data, observation, whatever found.

    Global warming is supported by massive amounts of evidence to where it's more likely true than not.

    It's not about passing blame, it's about finding the reason why the icecaps are melting or whatever you believe to be in question.

    Future generations may benefit from the knowledge gained now so instead of being ignorant to the problems of today, we need to embrace them so that in the future they may find a way we couldn't.
     
  13. gali98

    gali98 New Member

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    Sir, I am not going to argue about this with you. You have only served to prove my point. You want proof, and you won't accept anything given to you as proof. I have seen people healed of cancer. The doctors were astounded. They could not name a cause. I have seem lame people healed. Instantly. I have met people who were so hooked on drugs and alcohol, that they could not see a way out. And God took their addictions away - instantly. I know a person who's cousin was raised from the dead at their funeral. I have heard so many stories of miraculous things. I haven't seen science do any of that. And it has no way of explaining it. That's proof. You will not accept it. You want to see it yourself. Sir, you will not find it where you are looking.
    What's more I don't think you will ever find it when you do not want to.
    I am not going to argue with you, as it will produce nothing. You can call me a coward. You can call me ignorant. It also will not help a thing. I feel sorry for you; that you want to live such a life, but I cannot more than I have already done. I hope that someday, you will see God, and that it won't be under dire circumstances, or that it will be too late.
    Kory
     
  14. truthguild

    truthguild New Member

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    honestly, i would give serious consideration to any objective, empirical evidence not relying on logical fallacies for the existance of any god. so far, in all my years alive, no one has been able to provide any.
     
  15. Kayos

    Kayos Community Advocate Community Support

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    This forum is a debate forum. When you choose to participate in a subject such as this then arguments are bound to happen. If you do not want to argue with me or anyone else then you should probably post in another section of X10.

    What exactly is your point?

    You've given me zero proof.

    You've personally witnessed someone getting healed of cancer? What did this "healing" entail?

    Really? Were they truly disabled in the first place? Were they medically diagnosed with an illness?


    And how did "God" personally take there addictions away?

    No disrespect but that's so off the wall...

    So science is supposed to magically cure cancer, make lame people less lame, remove addictions, and rise the dead? If that is what you think science is then you're mistaken.

    What you are talking about are baseless stories. You claim they've all happened yet you cannot prove any of them are true. I'm sure that you think they've happened and that's all the proof you need.

    But you haven't proven anything. You don't have anything to back up those stories.

    That's true at least.

    See that's not true. I would love to be proven wrong.

    Once again, if you don't like the way this forum is you do not have to participate in the thread.

    Please note also that I'd never ever disrespect someone by calling them a coward or ignorant. I know you're not a coward, you have enough balls to state your beliefs before a crowd of both views on the subject.




    You don't need to feel sorry for me. I'm who I want to be and no one can change that. My life is good. It's actually much better than when I was forced to believe in something that I knew wasn't true. But thank you for your concern anyway.
     
  16. gali98

    gali98 New Member

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    I am not sure how someone being raised from the dead could not be "objective , empirical evidence," but I did not guess that you would accept it anyway. You are looking for proof that you won't find.
    Kory
     
  17. truthguild

    truthguild New Member

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    anything to verify someone raised from the dead? medical records, etc.
     
  18. Criptex

    Criptex New Member

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    The evidence that he is giving is a testimony. There's no way on earth that evidence can be prove. Only the eyes of the people who experienced it, and faith.
    Let's say, right now, something abnormal happens in front of you... and lets say you see something that is not suppose to be there, you can touch it, you can feel it, you can see it, but suddently, it desappears.
    Then you try to tell somebody what you saw. and you know that it was real, you know it was there, but would you have any proof?
    Its the same thing with God, if you don't have faith, it is impossible for you to believe. I think one of the greatest virtues of a person, is being open minded, to accept things that may seem crazy or just not justificable.
    Remember when people believed that Galileo Galilei was crazy because he came out with the idea of the earth moving around the sun? people didn't believe, because they thought that was an absurd hypothesis, I think we are like that now too.
     
  19. truthguild

    truthguild New Member

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    testimony is neither objective nor empirical.
    regarding your hypothetical situation - even if all my senses told me it was there, and a clearly remember it with a sane, rational mind - i wouldn't eventually have to admit i was probably wrong since there was no evidence for it.
    this video will explain it well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nhqGfN6t8
    comparing Galileo with the situation is a fallacy of faulty analogy - there is a major, significant difference - his conclusion was based on the evidence, not personal beliefs.
     
  20. Phyreman

    Phyreman New Member

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    No I don't believe in God but I do leave room open for greater beings (Aliens are not too far fetched for me). But one point I notice that is rarely made is that who wrote the Bible? Man, and man has one fatal flaw in his (her) designs, the possibility to make an error, or to be at fault. So, who's to say that the original writer wasn't just some bored guy who decided to write a really long book full of ideas to inspire people and get famous? That is an easy possibility, right? If someone tried to do that in present time however, we'd ridicule them til the day they died and call them a liar. But since it was written before any current person can remember, we pass it off as being absolute truth. Another curiosity is how the writer got all of this lovely information in the first place? And if God spoke to them for the Bible to be written, why them? Why were they so important and trustworthy, or just worthy for that matter, for the almighty God to speak to them, and them only to have a book written as His decree to mankind? AND, in this book, it tells man "Thall shalt not kill", but with the same breath He tells Noah to build and Ark and save the "worthy" while He expunges the rest of the earth's population (which was horridly created by two people and somehow everyone turned a different color and chose a different language to speak, also meaning we all engage in incest, which is morally wrong to MOST of the population). So, any answers?
     

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