Education - What Needs to Be Done?

[fractalfeline]

Ok so I thought I'd start another thread (the last one sure clunked) about education. It has been suggested that the educational system is imperfect, to say the very very least, and that considerable amounts of reform are necessary to ensure quality education for our citizens (feel free to jump in about other countries too, I can only speak for my own as I only have experience with my own). What's wrong with the educational system? What kind of reforms does it need? How will these problems be solved?

For example, I believe that high school ought to be shortened, and the lesson plan more concentrated, and more directed towards developing skills and talents that students have earlier. If a student has a natural talent towards computer programming, there ought to be an option for the student to start learning about it sooner, and maybe get some college credit for it.

Also I believe the economics of public schooling needs to be reworked so that the poor can have the same educational opportunities as the rich, or at least the same as the middle class. The rich get richer and the poor get stuck in the inner city? That's not the American Dream is it?

And so forth. Well? What do you guys think?

Edit: Previous threads on the topic, for necromantic purposes:
http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/105466-federal-national-education-standards-usa.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/104587-sats.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/off-topic/104177-online-college.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/14220-education-thoughts-stance-humans.html

 

[phazzedout]

Took the words out of my mouth friend. There should be classes to enhance the skills of your students. Some may say, "Well, it is not their responsibility." I say that they make it their responsibility. I always argue this, what about the jocks, the people who can get dismissed from class to play their sports. When was I ever dismissed from class to go home and refresh my memory about web design and programming. Well never... that's when.

Why should schools only cater to different skills. In my school the elective classes were a complete joke. The best ones were auto shop, and wood shop. But let's be honest to ourselves, how many people you know that played in the high school football team ever turned pro. I only know of one from a different school district. Now compare that to how many people become mechanics after taking auto shop, I know of 15 in my district, 30 around my district. Which should we fund.

Speaking of funding, my old high school (which I dropped out of and transfered to one without a football field) spent 2 million two years ago on their football team. Now tell me... how would you feel.

As for computer classes, high school computer classes are a big joke and should be taken as so... I mean really... My friend who wanted to become a game designer took a course there. I wanted to see how much he would learn so after he completed I opened up maya and told him to make me something for 50 bucks. He looked as if I opened up an alien program. The program my school used was Animation Master 2000. Have any of you heard of that, I sure as hell have not. So I decided to call the school and tell them about a free alternative that is not as good as Autodesk Suite but better than Animation Master. (e.g. Blender) the lady did not listen to me and just clicked. I mean really, you will lead your students down the wrong path...

I support Continuation High Schools. Many of us think that this is where all the worst of the worst go but really it is just the people who could careless about history and more about fixing a car or repairing a computer. Which is why these school take away silly things like football or baseball and just have a general ed physical education. How these schools teach is mostly vocational related. My school was 4 periods of general ed, and if you can pass them with a C you can go to any other class to learn what you want to learn. They did not cater to everyone but they tried.

As for budget, as I stated before.... we spend most of our money on the military and for what? Most of our recent wars were imperialistic, why should we fund stupidity instead of knowledge, art, science, culture etc. If I through some miracle became president I would focus mostly on schools and colleges not on whether my penis is the biggest (metaphorically).

As for colleges, they should not allow State Colleges or Universities to receive freshman's and sophmores, that takes away a lot of money especially if they drop. Community or Junior colleges should be for freshman's and sophmores. Community is more focused on getting your general ed than a pompous professor that only cares about publishing a text book. YES THAT IS WHAT FRESHMAN AND SOPHMORE YEARS OF COLLEGE IS ABOUT GENERAL ED.

 

[jtwhite]

You should read this: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AWsUEp-BChqZZGN0aGdzajNfMjZoNWtyNDhnaw&hl=en

If a student has a natural talent towards computer programming, there ought to be an option for the student to start learning about it sooner, and maybe get some college credit for it.

I totally agree with this. I think that if a student knows what he or she wants to do when entering high school, they should be able to start on that path and develop skills early on.

Also I believe the economics of public schooling needs to be reworked so that the poor can have the same educational opportunities as the rich, or at least the same as the middle class. The rich get richer and the poor get stuck in the inner city? That's not the American Dream is it?

You're absolutely correct. There is a great deal of economic disparity in America today. The American dream is pretty much down the drain.

 

[phazzedout]

There is no more American dream. I was talking to my mom yesterday. She would tell me that during the Cold War people would see this country as number 1 or at least competing with Russia. Then after Clinton, she would say that this country will begin to crumble. Sure enough it will if it is not beginning. Honestly, all of our jobs are going over seas, my dad and my girlfriend's dad have plans on moving back to Mexico!?! Seriously if that doesn't sound bad then I don't know what is. This country is much too capitalistic to the point that no one in the bottom of the economic scale can move up at all. For instance, look at Bill Gates, who honestly needs billions. I put myself in my position and I thought, I would give almost all of it away to charity without even thinking about it.

In any case, if our school system caters to high school jocks with their "skill" then they should cater to almost everyone.

 

[fractalfeline]

There is no more American dream. I was talking to my mom yesterday. She would tell me that during the Cold War people would see this country as number 1 or at least competing with Russia. Then after Clinton, she would say that this country will begin to crumble. Sure enough it will if it is not beginning. Honestly, all of our jobs are going over seas, my dad and my girlfriend's dad have plans on moving back to Mexico!?! Seriously if that doesn't sound bad then I don't know what is. This country is much too capitalistic to the point that no one in the bottom of the economic scale can move up at all. For instance, look at Bill Gates, who honestly needs billions. I put myself in my position and I thought, I would give almost all of it away to charity without even thinking about it.

In any case, if our school system caters to high school jocks with their "skill" then they should cater to almost everyone.

You sure have a nit to pick with jocks. And pigs apparently I suppose I never experienced the full brunt of the Clique Wars (the "jocks" in my school were not even remotely a homogenous group, for starters). You weren't bullied were you?

Which is another problem with schooling here in America. Bullies aren't adequately dealt with, and the Clique Drama has been allowed to consume entirely too much. Someone needs to discipline bullies, or at least keep them from disrupting everyone else. Teens are rapidly becoming very precocious, and since the curriculum doesn't keep them busy or interested, they turn to other means of entertainment and fulfillment. This is another reason I believe in accelerated, targetted, talent development and skill oriented classes: it keeps people busy and interested, and might help develop their identity and confidence.

 

[phazzedout]

@frac LOL! I was never bullied during my high school years. I was actually near the top of the "food" chain. I am 6"3' and big, not really fat, when I tell people I am about 310 people think I am round as hell but I am not that round. So nobody wished to mess with me, luckily, because my bark is stronger than my bite.

I hate jocks, what is the point of having them around. What makes them so special, why should the school support them and their habit, why do they get special treatment? These are one of the questions I ask, because in old high school they would treat them as if they were special from anyone else which seems silly. Where I live in, jocks do not hold much "street" credit, they are known as a bunch of pussies to everyone. Case in point, I live in the middle of what people would call the "ghetto" and middle class homes. My brother is a gang banger (which is weird because I am nothing like him). Well he is decent in school gets A's B's C's so he is not that bad as other gang members. Well in class he had a group project, he had no partners so he saw the only group with less members was the group with 3 jocks. He went up to them and asked, "Hey, can I get in your group." They laughed and said no, so he obviously got mad. He would understand if he was a piece of crap student, so his mentality and the mentality of others in my city is back your words up with how good you can fight. So he went up to them and began fighting. So the jocks lost their credit there when they all got their ass handed to them. I felt like sharing this story on how jocks are viewed here. In other cities like the city of Los Angeles jocks are more popular.

Back to what I was saying, schools focus too much time trying to get everyone out of high school without really knowing anything. When I got out of high school I didn't know what the hell to do. Luckily I can learn but I lost for the first 3 months and didn't really do much.

 

[xav0989]

I cannot speak as much for America (I live up north), but from what I see, there needs to be more implication of students in the school. I'll take myself as an example. I used to have very poor grades in writing. However, I worked toward it. I stayed sometimes after school at school to work with my French teacher to write things. I recently stayed with her 4 hours after school to write an open letter that I sent to a newspaper. These are the experiences that need to occur much more frequently at school since it helped me grow in a way that regular school work would not.

 

[jtwhite]

I cannot speak as much for America (I live up north), but from what I see, there needs to be more implication of students in the school. I'll take myself as an example. I used to have very poor grades in writing. However, I worked toward it. I stayed sometimes after school at school to work with my French teacher to write things. I recently stayed with her 4 hours after school to write an open letter that I sent to a newspaper. These are the experiences that need to occur much more frequently at school since it helped me grow in a way that regular school work would not.

Many teachers at my school offer this type of tutoring but students do not seem interested. I think schools need to find a way to intrinsically motivate students. Self-motivation is a key element to someone's success in education.

 

[dj0wns]

-i am a freshman honors student at de la salle high school so my opinion might be a little biased

I was talking about the problem of motivation with my friends mom today on my ride home from school. anyways, i brought up a point about how the poorer the person, the less they try in school. so I feel that to be true, at least in most cases. it seems that kids will only aspire to be like their parents or below as far as final job choice.

Out of every kid that i know that goes to my school, the most intelligent people come from upper middle class households. This also seemed to be true when i went to a public middle school. All of the smart kids were also from wealthy-ish families. Most of the kids from th poorer families were the pot heads or the dumb skateboarder that doesnt care about school.

My friend tutors at the monument crisis center once and a while, and the kids he was tutoring didnt try in school because they wanted to be WWE wrestlers! I thought it was outrageous.

I feel, as someone said above me, that schools should gives kids the ability to start taking classes towards what they want their major to be. They do this in France(even though i hate socialism) and it seems to work out pretty well. The public school i was going to go to had i not gone to dls has started trying this, but its mainly a joke. Its the right direction, but much more needs to be done for it to be successful.

 

[phazzedout]

@dj0wns What is your definition of intelligent or smart. While I went to high school this definition was only thrown to those who had a good GPA. Is that what it takes to be intelligent then sign me up. This is not the case of course. Intelligence is not really decided by one factor, nor is it decided by social class, culture, religion or any other means that separates us as a species. Intelligence is decide by different things; how well and fast you learn, knowledge, how critical you think, how good your problem solving skills are and maybe even how well you communicate. Of course my list is not stating that those are the only means of intelligence. It could be in many different forms of intelligence. Maybe one kid has a gift to understand numbers easily while the other kid next to him has a hard time understanding the material. The same people, different scenario; now let's turn the tables let's say the kid who can not understand math at all found his gift in writing, speaking, things along those lines, while the kid who has zoom through math without a problem can not write coherent sentences to save his life. This happens in life a lot. Not everyone is the same, you can not stereotype people because mostly because there will always be that one person that will prove that stereotype wrong.

Case in point, I grew in a hispanic family. This may seem fine and dandy, but Hispanics can also be very racist as much as any stereotypical white person from the south. Well I grew up believing that people of African decent have no feelings and will kill you at any moment. I literally thought this when I was a child. When we moved to a city where 24% of the people where from African decent, I thought the worst. Luckily I got rid of this discrimination and paranoia but one person made that stereotype disappear, I actually had a crush on this nice (african-american) girl.

Now that I am try to remain humanist I try to rid myself of any bonds that seperates us as a human species. (Culture, Religion, Political Party, Nationality, Race, Color, and Patriotism. Whenever anyone asks what is my race or nationality I just say I am a Californian mostly because that is the lowest common denominator to a sense.)

The point of my story was that you should not think that just because your environment consists of intelligent upper class citizens that the world is full of them. Not every great mind was rich, some even lived in poverty.

If you ever plan on attending one of the colleges in California, never use any stereotype or you will never get a degree. In California the College system is super liberal and implement in their curriculum liberal ideals. I am disagree with parts of it, I mean stereotypes can make for some good jokes (don't try to call me a racist you can't tell me Dave Chappelle is not funny.)

 

[Parsa44]

There is no more American dream. I was talking to my mom yesterday. She would tell me that during the Cold War people would see this country as number 1 or at least competing with Russia. Then after Clinton, she would say that this country will begin to crumble. Sure enough it will if it is not beginning. Honestly, all of our jobs are going over seas, my dad and my girlfriend's dad have plans on moving back to Mexico!?! Seriously if that doesn't sound bad then I don't know what is. This country is much too capitalistic to the point that no one in the bottom of the economic scale can move up at all. For instance, look at Bill Gates, who honestly needs billions. I put myself in my position and I thought, I would give almost all of it away to charity without even thinking about it.

In any case, if our school system caters to high school jocks with their "skill" then they should cater to almost everyone.

Bill gates has donatated over $40bn to charity.

Plus we live in a capitalist society. People who are more skilled will make money while less skilled will sink to the bottom.
Thats life.

 

[ChatIndia]

For example, I believe that high school ought to be shortened, and the lesson plan more concentrated, and more directed towards developing skills and talents that students have earlier. If a student has a natural talent towards computer programming, there ought to be an option for the student to start learning about it sooner, and maybe get some college credit for it.

I'm not agree with you. It takes a long time to realize on which subject we are good or can make it as our profession. I recall the day of my childhood when I keep cursing the man who has invented mathematics for the first time. But now I'm very good with mathematics. How I've realized it? I never concentrate on my class, rather I keep playing chess during my mathematics class, I never practice mathematics but still I get good marks in mathematics and I'm able to solve problems directly on the examination hall (If I can only remember the formula) so thought of becoming an engineer. Now few weeks ago I've seen big advertisement hoarding of animation school and thought that I can be an animator cause I also love playing with computers. I'm only trying to tell that it isn't that easy to find that on which field we are very good.
And if we talk about our school study (As in India) it goes very systematic. On kindergarten, we generally play, sing songs and make stuffs with clays, some child may love to do this but did they wants to make his profession as a potter? then in primary school we study about every field, as I'm a science student so I'll talk about it here. We have studied science as a single subject. Now later it gets divided into many branches like physics, chemistry and biology and mathematics and many of us dropped biology or mathematics. In this way you keep eliminating the subject you don't like and finally reach to your destination subject.

Also I believe the economics of public schooling needs to be reworked so that the poor can have the same educational opportunities as the rich, or at least the same as the middle class. The rich get richer and the poor get stuck in the inner city? That's not the American Dream is it?

I think America can easily do it cause if India (less developed than USA and densely populated) can provide free education to poor children why can't USA. Also the ministers of India are corrupted and have lot of money on Swiss banks.

 

[phazzedout]

Plus we live in a capitalist society. People who are more skilled will make money while less skilled will sink to the bottom.
Thats life.

No.

Sorry for one liner but I don't know what else to say to this guy. He is ignoring every fact of today's capitalistic society.

In today's capitalistic society it seems to resemble the aristocracy of the Middle Ages. Rich stay rich and poor stay poor.

 

[dj0wns]

@dj0wns What is your definition of intelligent or smart. While I went to high school this definition was only thrown to those who had a good GPA. Is that what it takes to be intelligent then sign me up. This is not the case of course. Intelligence is not really decided by one factor, nor is it decided by social class, culture, religion or any other means that separates us as a species. Intelligence is decide by different things; how well and fast you learn, knowledge, how critical you think, how good your problem solving skills are and maybe even how well you communicate. Of course my list is not stating that those are the only means of intelligence. It could be in many different forms of intelligence. Maybe one kid has a gift to understand numbers easily while the other kid next to him has a hard time understanding the material. The same people, different scenario; now let's turn the tables let's say the kid who can not understand math at all found his gift in writing, speaking, things along those lines, while the kid who has zoom through math without a problem can not write coherent sentences to save his life. This happens in life a lot. Not everyone is the same, you can not stereotype people because mostly because there will always be that one person that will prove that stereotype wrong.

I should have clarified that. By intelligence, i meant a combination of grades and ability to give strong thoughtful arguments over a point that they have.

[EDIT] but then again, grades dont say very much. you can be very lazy, and not achieve the grades that you know should be achieved.

I really dont know how to define intelligence now that i think about it... There are way too many subtle factors that can be picked up by the brain (allowing you to make a profile about them in your mind) than can be listed

 

[kefka_asylum]

mandatory genocide will cleanse the non believers of intelligence
allowing room for all those who need education to succeed and thrive

 

[phazzedout]

@kefka_asylum Wow, I have no words for you on this one.

@dj0wns Grades do not trully matter, they just show the school that you could sit down at your home and do your homework, or that your parents beat you senseless everyday for you to do your homework. Really, grades hold no merit when it comes to intelligence.

Also just because one man can argue better than another does not make him more intelligent, argueing or giving a speech is a whole different category. Take for instance me, I can not argue when I speak even if it were to save my life, mostly because I have a stuttering problem. Would this make me less intelligent than one who could speak flawlessly. I know of a person who could speak flawlessly and use coherent sentences and yet if you actually listen to what he is saying you will not understand what he means and even call him stupid.

Intelligence is not something we could just label on anyone. I mean you could label Albert Einstein as a genius because of his work in Physics and mathematics, but tell me, how great is he in English? You could label William Shakespeare as a genius because of how he wrote and his composition but is he a math wiz.

You see what I mean, an Intelligent person you will see by how he thinks;

Does he think for himself?
When he does think for himself, does he think critically?
How easy is it for him to learn?

These things could classify a person as an intelligent but I have seen people who do not fit in this category and have succeded in life as well better than the people I have stated in those questions.

Is sucess in life also a sign of intelligence, perhaps?

Here is an article that may help, doesn't give you a clear answer but it works.

http://www.aboutintelligence.co.uk/what-intelligence.html

 

[xav0989]

On a side note, to add to the point that grades are in fact not a good representation of your "intelligence" it has been proven that people we commonly call geniuses usually get bored at school, work less at school because of that and therefore have lower grades. One perfect example would be Albert Einstein. He used to fail most of his classes in High School (including physics), but later revolutionized the world with his theories.

 

[ChatIndia]

On a side note, to add to the point that grades are in fact not a good representation of your "intelligence" it has been proven that people we commonly call geniuses usually get bored at school, work less at school because of that and therefore have lower grades. One perfect example would be Albert Einstein. He used to fail most of his classes in High School (including physics), but later revolutionized the world with his theories.

but why can't teacher's understand this fact.

 

[fractalfeline]

I've been kinda busy and I've read through the replies, making brief replies here (no really, I'll get back to this eventually lol):

@ snshusat
While I agree that some people are better able to make up their minds than others, and it takes time to make a final decision, that does not mean that a child does not have some interests and talents by time they about about 12 or so. The idea is to focus on the base talents and build from there, rather than force them to learn the same curriculum at the same pace as their peers, who have different personalities, talents, and skills. I'd envision a system in which the 5th-8th years of school are "dabble" years where some core classes are taken but they can start choosing skill and talent oriented electives. Years 8-10 might be more honing based, less core classes and more electives. Kids could graduate with "science heavy" diplomas or "linguistics heavy" diplomas or opt for a "regular" diploma if they haven't made their minds up. Seriously, 12 years is too much schooling without a lot of substance to justify the time. ALSO we do have free education for all children, however the quality of education is not equal. Children that live in poor areas get the lowest quality teachers because the community can only afford low wage teachers. The high wage, better quality teachers go where they can be paid more. There are some good teachers that believe in education who will go to the poor schools to teach even if it means lower wages, but that's rare. I tried to enroll in a program like that upon graduating from college, to teach in a poor school for 2 years in exchange for loan forgiveness, but for whatever reason they decided they didn't want me. My essay writing skills are perhaps not eloquent enough?

Re: Intelligence =/= Grades
It's true. I've known plenty of really talented and intelligent people who can't be bothered to get good grades. I know in D&D there two stats: WIS and INT. Your INT score could be really awesome, but without a good WIS score you get yourself into heaps of trouble and can't make a good decision worth a crap. It takes good intelligence to get that 4.0 GPA, but it takes wisdom to realize the value of having such a GPA and deciding to work for it. Half of seizing an opportunity is realizing there's an opportunity to seize right?
And sometimes it's just a matter of priorities. If your family needs the money to survive, you have to work to help pay the bills, and you just don't have time or energy for school, then that's life. It's a real shame too, that when situations like that arise, there's no flexibility in the school system to allow for things like decelerated schooling, one class at a time, and/or night school. They do that for college, why not for public school too? Often teenagers have to drop out due to lack of flexibility.

 

[xav0989]

Re: Intelligence =/= Grades
It's true. I've known plenty of really talented and intelligent people who can't be bothered to get good grades. I know in D&D there two stats: WIS and INT. Your INT score could be really awesome, but without a good WIS score you get yourself into heaps of trouble and can't make a good decision worth a crap. It takes good intelligence to get that 4.0 GPA, but it takes wisdom to realize the value of having such a GPA and deciding to work for it. Half of seizing an opportunity is realizing there's an opportunity to seize right?
And sometimes it's just a matter of priorities. If your family needs the money to survive, you have to work to help pay the bills, and you just don't have time or energy for school, then that's life. It's a real shame too, that when situations like that arise, there's no flexibility in the school system to allow for things like decelerated schooling, one class at a time, and/or night school. They do that for college, why not for public school too? Often teenagers have to drop out due to lack of flexibility.

Your wisdom and intelligence thing is really well though, I think I'll store it somewhere to remember it. As for the flexibility, I believe that teens in high school try to get too fast into an adult life, and that is why they (including me, but to a lesser extend) complain about the hours. Who really needs a job at 16 or 17. Not most teens, and it can certainly wait one more year, in most cases.