Gay marriage

[essellar]

Yes, indeed -- and black folks ought to be ridin' on the back of the bus where they belong and eatin' in the alleyway behind the restaurant.

You wait for a few thousand years for things to change, and sure, it's nice that they're not burning you at the stake anymore or forcing you to undergo chemical castration. Being gay isn't actually illegal in a lot of places anmore (although gay/lesbian sex -- and a lot of what heterosexual couples get up to -- still runs afoul of the sodomy laws in a lot of jurisdictions), but it's still a community-enforced capital crime. The combativeness didn't start in the LGBT community -- they, and a lot of other reasonable people acting with them, have simply stopped lying down.

 

[Jennacide]

Personally, I think that they should stop trying so hard for marriage rights.

Oh yeah, you're right, I don't deserve marriage rights because I love my girlfriend... There's no point in me getting married because hey, I'm a lesbian and well, we just don't deserve it, right? I'm so sick of ignorance it's appalling...

 

[theguyistheman65]

Yes, indeed -- and black folks ought to be ridin' on the back of the bus where they belong and eatin' in the alleyway behind the restaurant.

You wait for a few thousand years for things to change, and sure, it's nice that they're not burning you at the stake anymore or forcing you to undergo chemical castration. Being gay isn't actually illegal in a lot of places anmore (although gay/lesbian sex -- and a lot of what heterosexual couples get up to -- still runs afoul of the sodomy laws in a lot of jurisdictions), but it's still a community-enforced capital crime. The combativeness didn't start in the LGBT community -- they, and a lot of other reasonable people acting with them, have simply stopped lying down.

I'm not saying they shouldn't fight back, im just saying fighting fire with fire isn't a good idea. Just because the combativeness didn't originate with them doesn't mean they have to show the same back. Im also not saying they should be passive. Im just saying, the reason they are at a stalemate is that they are putting out what they get in. I just think a better way to go about it would be to show them the failure of their logic in their own minds. If you hit a steel bar with a hammer, you get a rough bend, and the steel bar comes out all banged up. But if you get the right tool, a press, your bend comes out they way you want it, with out a mark on the bar. Had the African Americans all risen up and shown the rest of the world that they were equal through only example and not protest, the civil rights movement, or at least the African American part, would have been over 200 years ago. You don't win over the hearts and minds of a people by fighting them for years, you do it by inspiring them.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

Oh yeah, you're right, I don't deserve marriage rights because I love my girlfriend... There's no point in me getting married because hey, I'm a lesbian and well, we just don't deserve it, right? I'm so sick of ignorance it's appalling...

Where in there did i say you didn't deserve them, or even that you should stop trying. Im just saying that you might find other ways to get them easier.

 

[Jonathan]

Personally, the thought of some guy shoving his todger up my poop chute doesn't appeal to me one bit. Nor does the opposite.

:biggrin:

 

[theguyistheman65]

Oh yeah, you're right, I don't deserve marriage rights because I love my girlfriend... There's no point in me getting married because hey, I'm a lesbian and well, we just don't deserve it, right? I'm so sick of ignorance it's appalling...

This is also a prime example of what I was just talking about. Just because I said something in a bit to harsh of a manner, the rest of what i have to say doesn't get through. I support gay and lesbian marriage, and I understand how that must feel to not be able to get that. Whats better, one clean shot, or twenty shots all over the place. All I ask of you is to try to look at this from their prospective, then, bearing that prospective in mind, convince them within their own logic that your are equal to them. And if you think you have to fight hard to get what you want, then what kind of a person are you?

 

[Jennacide]

My major concern is: Why is there even a perspective at all? Seriously, why? Why would it matter so much to someone else who doesn't even know me? Can you answer that? Can anyone answer that? If it's about religion, then let me go to Hell when I die, just let me do it. You'll be saved and you won't have to deal with my sinner ass polluting Heaven with my wild ways. So again, why? Why would anyone think or even so much as feel that they have ANY RIGHT what so ever to have ANY say in whom I love? If you can answer that, I'll quit fighting for my GOD given right to love.

 

[theguyistheman65]

I agree with you fully. Why should anyone tell you what to do because of a part of a probably false religion that was put in there for a medical concern that has since been mitigated. Just because me and a few dozen thousand other like minded individuals believe in something loosely along the lines of rational anarchy, and disagree with most of modern civilization has to offer, you don't see us trying to force our ideas upon everyone else. We just don't bring it up with other people, and when a problem arises, we explain our viewpoints in a way that respects their view. Even something as simple as your going about it wrong, when put the wrong way, is enough to provoke combativeness. When ever im explaining my views to a christian, its usually some bull along the lines of, "If god wants us to be truly right and moral, would this not include being able to govern ourselves with out need of an external body?", except with a bit more fluff about how "god" wants us to "be strong" and stuff like that. We generally get left alone, and on the rare occasion something does happen, its usually that we make someone notice the immoral parts of society and religion. I would suggest you try a similar way, granted its not going to work verbatim, but its worth giving it a shot.

 

[Jennacide]

you don't see us trying to force our ideas upon everyone else.

You were doing good until that there ^ Who said I was forcing anything on anyone? I just want the same rights as everyone else, is that so wrong? Who am I forcing what on I'd like to know...

 

[mithiril91]

They do not want your blessings.
They do not want to force your church or temple or mosque to perform the ceremony.
They just want the piece of paper.

If you will accept a couple married by another religion or by a county clerk, they just ask you to accept their marriage too.

gg reading, Nobody said get married through the gov, I said in the name of the lord, aka on a church.

I suppose you feel pretty smart now?

 

[theguyistheman65]

Why do i have to suck so bad at putting ideas into words, what was meant by that was "you don't see us fighting against someone that hates us by a show of force via (various means, including, but not limited to, large protest marches and stuff like that)". When what we really do is basically say, "This is why the appears to go against what you believe in, but actually doesn't (when in reality, it does, we just tend to exploit logic holes)"

 

[Jennacide]

So, if I understand you guy, you're saying marching is viewed as a negative thing? Boy I bet MLK is spinning in is grave atm... Last I checked "marching" is how anything was ever accomplished in this country... but I could be totally wrong...

 

[dypou1]

I think we dont have to enter in private life of a person

 

[garthgillman146]

I am a Christian so obviously i am morally opposed to gay marriage and gays in general... I don't hate gays, there are some that kind of give me the creeps, but most seem to be nice, albeit different, people. I really don't care what gays decide to do whether it be marriage or some other more unofficial civil union, just leave me out of it, in debates about this issue, it seems that if you are against gay marriage, you're essentially told to shut up because you're a hater, a bigot and so on and so forth.

Also, regarding an earlier post... this isn't really an argument just a statement. Some people that are gay aren't born that way, there are studies that have shown that gays sometimes become that way because they had abusive parents.

 

[essellar]

Religion really shouldn't come into it at all, but it does. Part of it is simply the natural tendency for people with faith convictions to believe that what they believe is The Truth -- it really wouldn't be much of a faith if that weren't the case, would it? In a lot of cases, we've managed to get beyond that, and come to understand that no society that is governed by the rules and mores of a single faith can be at peace unless everybody in that society shares the same faith. In other cases, we've allowed that the rules that a faith encompasses may be a "minimum standard" -- there are rules in the Bible, for instance, about the treatment of slaves and the women and children of a defeated enemy that might have seemed a gentler approach at the time, but since our ideas about slavery and the prosecution of war have changed, the rules associated with them are either irrelevant now or seem too harsh by far.

There is a bigger problem, though, in play, and that's fear. We saw it here in Canada -- there was a genuine fear that a law allowing gay marriage would somehow force it upon religious communities. That's one of the biggest drivers of the idea that there ought to be two "classes" of binding relationship: "marriage" and "civil union". And, you know, that might even be fair if the two classes were extended into the world of heterosexual couples, with "marriage" referring only to civil unions that had some sort of ecclesiastical approval. But that's not the usage in English; it doesn't matter whether the ceremony was performed at the church/synagogue/temple/etc., at the courthouse, aboard ship, or whether the legally-binding nature of the relationship rests entirely upon the provisions of cohabitation laws (common-law marriage), the word is still "marriage". And words like "marriage" and "spouse" have deep legal implications across the spectrum, from inheritance to permissible hospital visitation policies.

It doesn't help. of course, that there are nominally "religious" outfits like the Westboro Baptist Church statnding at the forefront of a lot of anti-gay communication and protest. It just may turn out, though, that their extremism becomes the catalyst for change in real Christian communities (the ones that believe that "Love your neighbor as yourself" means the same thing as the shema yisroel, as it is recorded the Nazz once said). Even if it never gets beyond "love the sinner, hate the sin", that represents a whole lot of progress.

There are no doubt people who would like to see the acceptance of gays thrust upon religious institutions. That's not likely to happen, regardless of law -- if the beliefs of a community are going to change, that change is going to come from within. So far, laws that provide for gay marriage (in jurisdictions that have them) have left the churches out of the picture. Changing the entire world is a huge itch that is going to take a long time to scratch and an awful lot of calamine lotion to ease; achieving equal legal status in matters that are governed entirely by civil law can be done quickly by government fiat. And such a fiat is merely fair if granting rights to one group does not remove reasonable rights from another.

 

[MaestroFX1]

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate children. I just think it'll be so hard, so troublesome. I'd rather focus on a career, not being a mother. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Nah!
Actually that sounds completely rational to me.

 

[Jennacide]

I am a Christian so obviously i am morally opposed to gay marriage and gays in general...

Okay, so you're "morally" opposed to gays... hmmm... and who gave you those so called morales? The church? Of course... Who's to say that the church isn't the one who's morally wrong? After all, they're the ones teaching you it's okay to hate and be opposed to your fellow human beings because of what? Are we hurting you? Are we harming you? Are we hurting or harming your church? No, nothing like that. It's the church who's hurting and harming us. Devaluing our lives and why? What's the motivator there? Are they trying to convert us, save us? What if we don't want that? What if we don't care or don't believe that?

Still nobody can answer my questions above, in fact, nobody's even bothered to touch on them but still people come in and blast my lifestyle, but I guess that's okay and that's what helps to define you as a Christian right?

So if I understand your outlook, it's okay to be loving and caring to everyone, except us screwed up gays right? It's totally okay for the Church to look down on us, to treat us as lower life forms, like a dog for example and then ignore our feelings and outlooks. Hrmmm... starting to sound like Nazi Germany to me...

I'd bet my LIFE that if someone in the church were to figure out how to make money off of us, they'd start loving us and treating us as equals. Prove me wrong, I'd love to see that.

I don't hate gays, there are some that kind of give me the creeps

Guess what? ME TOO! I don't get the guys who run around like queens, I just don't, but hey, that's their deal and who am I to stop them from expressing themselves? They're not hurting me, you or anyone else, so again, what's the big damned deal here? If you don't like something, then don't expose yourself to it! Don't seek it out online, don't talk about it and just live your life! Before you say, then don't go on marches, well, that's something neither of us have a say in. We live in a country that allows us to do that, maybe for not much longer but as of right now, all I have to do is go down to city hall, pay 15 bucks and get my permit to march. Then gather a bunch of folks an do it! That's it, it's not tough and anyone with the 15 bucks can. So again, how are any of us harming you?

but most seem to be nice, albeit different, people. I really don't care what gays decide to do whether it be marriage or some other more unofficial civil union, just leave me out of it, in debates about this issue, it seems that if you are against gay marriage, you're essentially told to shut up because you're a hater, a bigot and so on and so forth.

That's because when you voice against it, you are being a bigot. Here's the definition of bigot btw directly from dictionary.com:

–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

So yeah, that's about the size of it.

Also, regarding an earlier post... this isn't really an argument just a statement. Some people that are gay aren't born that way, there are studies that have shown that gays sometimes become that way because they had abusive parents.

You're right, somewhat. I've always been bi, always! But 3 years ago when I was raped by 4 guys at once and I could do nothing about it, that moment in my life I swore off men forever! Being close to a guy drags up that time in my life but not when I'm with a girl. So yeah, you're sorta right but I've simply embraced the other side of me which has made me so happy that I shouldn't have to go on any further about it.

In the end, bigots and haters need not apply. I can't stand them but you know what? Unlike any Christian or religious nut out there, I still love everyone equally, even those who hate me back. To me, that's what it means to be a true Christian, after all, Jesus says to love unconditionally, why cant you? You = the royal you, as in all Christians.

 

[Sharky]

They should be castrated. Hearing that makes me sick.

 

[essellar]

They should be castrated. Hearing that makes me sick.

Is it reasonable to assume that your comment was in relation to the Westboro Baptist Church Wikipedia link?

I'd think so, since there doesn't appear to be anything else in this thread that would induce that reaction in a reasonable person, whatever side of the issue they may be on. (It is almost impossible to see how a reasonable person could react otherwise, at least at a gut level.) It's just that this thread's topic is, um, polarizing to say the least, and folks may be tempted to read things into what's posted whether it's actually there or not. Since the context is missing (as of this moment, at least) I'd hate to see anyone coming late to the party and reading it wrongly, assigning sentiments to you that you do not, in fact, carry.

 

[Sharky]

I'd like to direct your attention to the post above mine. Second to last paragraph. I am not going to quote it in case she decides to remove that sentence. Please don't put words in my mouth. I haven't heard of the Westboro Baptist Church, nor have I read the Wikipedia page, so I'd not like to be misunderstood as saying what you suggest.

Quite frankly, I'm not fussed if people misattribute my intentions online due to not bothering to read, because it's another excuse for them to be publicly humiliated for it. Which is, like, my second favourite thing to do online.

"I'd think so, since there doesn't appear to be anything else in this thread that would induce that reaction in a reasonable person"

... If you are going to even try to use that argument you may as well go home now. Or turn the pc off.

Do you want to define a "reasonable person"? Is it you - are you a reasonable person? Maybe politicians could learn a thing or two instead of referring to Average Joe.

Unless you're just saying I'm not a 'reasonable person'.

Callumacrae, shush.

 

[essellar]

Difficult to see how I missed that -- sorry, it makes perfect sense now. I had seen Jennacide's entry on a previous visit to the page, but for some reason is wasn't on the page when I read your reply. I'm not normally blind (even selectively), and I would solemnly affirm (swearing isn't something I'm spiritually equipped to do) that your posting abutted mine on that reading, but I'm willing to admit that anything's possible with my dementia in play. Carry on -- and I'll leave my idiocy on display for posterity.

I'm sorry to have aroused your ire over a misunderstanding; that was what I was trying to prevent. I certainly didn't intend to put words into your mouth, or to align you in anyone's mind with either side of the argument. (You might want to check out the Westboro group, though -- I'm not using anything like a narrow or one-sided definition of "reasonable" in this instance. That's why I used a link to a source with citations. It's not that they're anti-gay as such -- many people are, in staunch and consistent accordance with their spiritual beliefs -- but their other activities that beggar the imagination.)