How to become a REAL web developer

[oab]

well im to lazy to read this whole thread right now but yea i really hate wysiwyg editors im a code kinda guy i like to get down and dirty with my code and make it neat and clean...

 

[SniperFox]

Great read .

I hate seeing that too. However, I use those programs. . Lol. I don't use them by themselves though. My work is always a combination. I make the layout in PS, slice it in ImageReady ( Haven't learned Fireworks yet ), save it as HTML ( However, I do NOT use the default settings. I found a quick tutorial that showed how to get IR to save as CSS, rather than saving it in Tables. ), then use Dreamweaver to edit, and add my content.

Even after all that, I'm not done, I always go back, and make sure everything looks good ( I have, however, given up on coding for IE. I just can't handle it, and I don't have that kind of time and patience anymore. So my layouts are usually optimized for Firefox, mostly because it's the only browser I use, but also because nearly everyone I know, that visits my site, is a Firefox user. ), I also have one of my pro Web developer friends go back and double check my CSS, to make sure nothing is messed up, then I run it through the W3C CSS Validator, just to be safe, lol. ( I haven't done it for my new layout yet. I'm sure there are quite a few errors that I missed. )

I've come a long way from where I started ( Back in the AOL RP Chatroom days, I would code Guild sites. I didn't have any of the programs I have now. All I had was notepad. I'm SO glad those days are gone for me )

I used to use frames, even recently, until I learned how to code my DIVs correctly, that is. Still trying to learn "fluid" layouts, though.


I kinda wandered off there . My point:

Using the WYSIWYG editors by themselves is bad, and takes no real creativity, or skill, honestly, but, using them in conjunction with one another, and actually taking the time to work with the settings, rather than leaving them at the defaults, can produce some very nice results, fairly easily.

Just to show how far I've come, lol.

One of the old Guild Sites I made ( Pure code, no images, nothing, just text ): http://www.freewebs.com/bsovforum/index.html

My latest:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=36352473

^My website basically looks like that, but different links, and no comments at the bottom.

 

[Axe_Swipe]

I'm by no means a design expert and generally dislike profusely writing code, so I do use Dreamweaver, but I use it in the paned format so that the WYSIWYG is on the bottom and the source html is visible in the top where I can see the code and adjust it manually as needed (which is often) and add extra code such as javascript. I use notepad++ for hacking php and css files because it will show me some errors handily (like a missing bracket somewhere).

 

[SEÑOR]

To start off, you can code css and code a website finein dreamweaver/frontpage, if you know what you are doing, its bad if frontpage/dreamweaver does it all for you.

Second, you have two options tables or divs. They both work fine, and using tables in your design instead of divs is easier and works just aswell.

 

[Micro]

You should be using divs however

Tables are for data like purposes

 

[legendphil]

hao!

some thought... took me quite too long to read.

using wysiwyg editors are good to visualize stuff, but that wouldn't be coding eh? that'll be just dragging and dropping stuff to generate a layout for the site. Plus, the products of such editors are static and in order to make a wealthy (I mean good) site, users will have to copy and paste codes and edit the contents. I can't call it bad as in illogical, but it is boring, and highly impractical because it eats resources.

In coding php and css, I usually usually make snippets so that it won't be difficult for me to remake my site every now and then, thus it becomes somewhat like wysiwyg; summoning codes from a pre-made stuff and then pasting them in notepad++, uploading them via cpanel, view via browser... tch long process... but it is something I have to bear to get a cool-looking site with dynamic attributes.

Howbout doing flash,? there's no other way that I know of doing it except through Dreamweaver and it's sorta wysiwyg... I guess the challenge there is making actionscripts...

 

[redlack]

First off, excellent article! It says what thousands of actual web developers and designers have been wanting to say to the "wannabee" designers for years. The article really grasps true web design, not the flimsy WYSIWYG-type. It provides great insight for the young developers who really want to learn, not take the easy shortcut way out.

Secondly, one-liners are STRICTLY PROHIBITED, as said in this area's description. Please make your posts worthwhile and thoughtful, or I will have to close this.

Ditto to the first part of this quote but...

about the easy shortcut thing to me it actually seems like that way is longer and more time consuming/annoying Its not really a shortcut at all, I believe the best page design would involve a proper balance of all the available elements, using all the editors at your disposal, gimp, photoshop, dreamweaver, fireworks, golive, imageready and all the others if you have any others.

anyway Brilliant rant, I enjoyed reading and learning.

 

[Trixter]

mmm I use dreamweaver but I use it in split view, that way I can code the page the way I want and see the results on the fly.

That said I HATE WYSIWYG editors. if you do use Dreamweaver you HAVE to use the coder view NOT the Designer view:nuts:

Edit: Using WYSIWYG and not coding is like Flash coders NOT knowing or using actionscript. Blasphemy!!!!

 

[LyteNight]

Well I can code behind the scenes as well as using WYSIWYG. For example, I usually design the basic layout in WYSIWYG (Dreamweaver) then I switch to the coder view and start adjusting and adding PHP tidbits. Also if you don't use tables for layout structure then what should you use?

 

[islamis4u]

i will say that i mostly use frontpage for my website when i started and it got good i understood the website making than i started using cms system it in start had problem but i resolved it but one thing i must say that if you have to make a website full of creativeness you have to collect one point or other points from everything like i use flash also than i use adobe for banner also i html also and php also so its always a mixture which according to me can make wonderful site.

 

[mildlyhotpeppers]

I think I'm going to cry. Well said, well said. Using <div> tags is the best way to go. (Sorry if someone said this already, I didn't read all three pages of this thread.)

http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/Web-Style-Sheets/DIV-Based-Layout-with-CSS/
DIV Based Layout with CSS

I found that to be useful.

 

[legendphil]

hao!

somewhat using wysiwyg as a draft or a scratch to build a good site or revise into good site, that's the good thing with people who can purchase adobe products. but that's brilliant... don't get me wrong or anything.

i have frontpage and swishmax, photoshop and the notepad++, but I don't use frontpage anymore, it causes more problems than some building stuff... but the good thing bout that is that I've learned CSS, html and php... now I'm learning to relate php and actionscript/swishscript (there's some difference with both, but doing actionscript in swishmax doesn't seem to cause me problems when the item is viewed in a browser)

as to doing flash without actionscripts, please understand what I quoted below as it may have caused an issue in this issue, which is already big as it is. I wasn't against Dreamweaver.

Howbout doing flash,? there's no other way that I know of doing it except through Dreamweaver and it's sorta wysiwyg... I guess the challenge there is making actionscripts...

as to layout, tables are good and so are divs... although using divs get me confused a bit, but that's the challenge. (I used to mix stuff 'til I read that tableless designs are better, so I'm learning how to make something tableless)

PEACE!

 

[redlack]

...
i have frontpage...

You had me worried there Frontpage is crap another experiment you wanna see how messed up M'softs wepage production stuff is? go into word type something anything and save as a webpage then open it up in code veiw(notepad DW or any of the others) and look for what you typed (hint: start from the bottom of the page up) but its all good that your not using it any more

 

[justnajm]

what I can say is by doing lot of projects and with different tasks, as experience is everything to become expert.

 

[legendphil]

hao!

what I can say is by doing lot of projects and with different tasks, as experience is everything to become expert.

yup, but do jobs one at a time one too many deals just burn the brain 'til there are no ideas left.

has anyone mentioned that Joomla is holding a templating contest now?

 

[The_Magistrate]

I'm glad everyone is finding this thread so interesting and I'm enjoying the discussion.

I will stand by my original post and say this:

Using anything other than a basic text editor and browser, I consider cheating. I know many of you like your 'split-view' but the problem is that you are still dependent on the editor for too many things. Writing code, then switching through 3 or 4 different browsers to make sure something didn't explode is half the fun and all the work. You can't get that experience using an IDE for development.

For those of you who asked about (or mentioned using tables for layout) please follow any of the links posted here. Using tables and font tags for design is the intellectual equivalent of trying to put a round peg in a square hole; you can try, but you'll look like an idiot.

Take a look at sites designed by professionals, and you'll see clean designs and clean code, uncluttered by markup inserted by an IDE.

And remember, it's all about semantics.

 

[jayant]

It is good thing to work with CSS, because it helps to save time, and confusion between styles within a site. You can create small to large site with a single page CSS style. It can create anything for you in your site. Try to get the code you wish from google search. It is amazing. Yes it is true "There is no shortcut to success and one who find it, is either fooling others or will collapse very soon". so no need to quarrel just cool and find the way.

 

[faolan]

Using anything other than a basic text editor and browser, I consider cheating. I know many of you like your 'split-view' but the problem is that you are still dependent on the editor for too many things. Writing code, then switching through 3 or 4 different browsers to make sure something didn't explode is half the fun and all the work. You can't get that experience using an IDE for development.

Would you include Amaya in that category, Magistrate? It doesn't do a split view, but rather it does provide you with one window that is the 'browser view', and you can open another for the source with the line codes. Also it handles HTML/XHTML/XML/CSS validation for you when you save the work.

Myself, I always work from the source view in Amaya. The only thing it enters is the information for what the page is coded in (HTML, XHTML, CSS, Strict, Transitional, Frameset). The rest I hand code and hand correct in the source view. And yes, I do bounce between other browsers just to make sure something didn't break *too* badly.

Now, keep in mind, I don't claim to be a 'web developer'. My knowledge of HTML, XHTML, and CSS is not that great but I am learning. I also don't like all the 'extras' most IDEs stick into their code, and a clean code is a good code as has been stated. But at the same time, there is something to be said for a minimalist WYSIWYG editor.

Just my $0.02, adjusted for inflation.

 

[The_Magistrate]

Would you include Amaya in that category, Magistrate? It doesn't do a split view, but rather it does provide you with one window that is the 'browser view', and you can open another for the source with the line codes. Also it handles HTML/XHTML/XML/CSS validation for you when you save the work.

Myself, I always work from the source view in Amaya. The only thing it enters is the information for what the page is coded in (HTML, XHTML, CSS, Strict, Transitional, Frameset). The rest I hand code and hand correct in the source view. And yes, I do bounce between other browsers just to make sure something didn't break *too* badly.

Now, keep in mind, I don't claim to be a 'web developer'. My knowledge of HTML, XHTML, and CSS is not that great but I am learning. I also don't like all the 'extras' most IDEs stick into their code, and a clean code is a good code as has been stated. But at the same time, there is something to be said for a minimalist WYSIWYG editor.

Just my $0.02, adjusted for inflation.

You can use whatever method you want to when developing your own websites. And it is appreciated that you specifically said, 'I don't claim to be a web developer.' Too many people (on this site specifically) make sites using tools such as Frontpage and Dreamweaver and flood the market with extremely poor work. This makes the work that I do worth less.

For example, a company once asked me to to a redesign of their website for them. I quoted them a price that included porting their existing content into a whole new design. This price was too high for them and they opted to let someone else do it.

Two months later they called me back. The person they had hired to do the redesign had inflated his experience and skills. The design he made, was done in Dreamweaver. It looked great in Internet Explorer, but exploded when viewed in Firefox, Opera, Safari or even Links. They had called me back to try to salvage what this guy had done.

Then ended up not having enough in their budget to pay me what I had originally quoted them, and I ended up doing more work to try and fix this guys train wreck.

I think that event is what triggered this whole thread. That and the abundence of 'sliced' templates available here. Slicing is great if you don't know what you're doing, but don't try to pass it off as real work, because it isn't.

 

[faolan]

I think the other problem is that people say 'I designed a website, therefor I am a web designer'. Those are the ones that I feel (rightly or wrongly) that the main thrust of your rant is aimed at. That's like saying 'I wired a battery to a lightbulb, therefor I'm an electrician'.

As you pointed out, there is far more involved with becoming a web designer. Not just the knowledge that you quite eloquently pointed out is needed, but also the sense of artistic design and layout. True, they may not have any skills or knowledge as regards image creation and manipulation, or even skills in font design... but they had best understand color theory and readability/accessability for the websites.

I made a point of stating that I don't claim to be a web designer because, quite frankly, I doubt I will ever have the skills, knowledge, or talent necessary. I'm an author, a writer. Yes, I have some knowledge of the very basics of web design, but that's not where my talent lies.

Ultimately, I must agree with the underlying current to this thread: someone who just uses a suite to create a website from a template that was created by someone else, without any design input or creation of their own and without the knowledge of how and why it works, should not be calling themselves a 'web designer'. I won't quite call it an insult to a professional web designer, but I can see how it would be considered an affront.

Again, my $0.02, adjusted for inflation. Pardon me while I don a flame retardant suit here....