Do you believe in God?

compass

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I do not believe in God.

Why not?
Well, to begin with my attitude to this question (i.e. "Why not?") probably makes me a "chronic" unbeliever. For me the right question is "Why?" (or rather "Why should I?" in expanded form), not "Why not?".

So, would anyone want to answer the "Why should I?" question?

In the meantime, here's some of my Why NOTs:

  1. Top of the list by far: It is not necessary to believe in God in order to explain enough of the universe/world/environment so that it enables me to successfuly function. Alternative, logical, natural explanations allow me to leave my life reasonably well and predict future events to a degree of accuracy that is in no observable way any worse than the people that use God to explain some or all of life's phenomena.
  2. In particular for the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, there are so many contradictory statements, percepts, principles espoused by the writings and the adherents of these religions that I cannot take them seriously in a debate. These religions, or rather the collected ideas of them, are simply not consistent.
  3. History and religion's role in it... :mad: Hmm, I stop here as I'm afraid of offending people, this is just my second post and I should be meek (as I plan on inheriting...)
Frankly, I am still amazed at the number of people that still passionately believe in God in this day and age...
I am in fact a bit sad and pessimistic about this every time I am reminded of this, as I have been reading this thread.
 

loveispoison

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I do not believe in God.

Why not?
Well, to begin with my attitude to this question (i.e. "Why not?") probably makes me a "chronic" unbeliever. For me the right question is "Why?" (or rather "Why should I?" in expanded form), not "Why not?".

So, would anyone want to answer the "Why should I?" question?

In the meantime, here's some of my Why NOTs:

  1. Top of the list by far: It is not necessary to believe in God in order to explain enough of the universe/world/environment so that it enables me to successfuly function. Alternative, logical, natural explanations allow me to leave my life reasonably well and predict future events to a degree of accuracy that is in no observable way any worse than the people that use God to explain some or all of life's phenomena.
  2. In particular for the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, there are so many contradictory statements, percepts, principles espoused by the writings and the adherents of these religions that I cannot take them seriously in a debate. These religions, or rather the collected ideas of them, are simply not consistent.
  3. History and religion's role in it... :mad: Hmm, I stop here as I'm afraid of offending people, this is just my second post and I should be meek (as I plan on inheriting...)
Frankly, I am still amazed at the number of people that still passionately believe in God in this day and age...
I am in fact a bit sad and pessimistic about this every time I am reminded of this, as I have been reading this thread.

dont get me wrong but its not you who is saying all this its the devil talking from within you your one of the unbelievers and your saying you dont believe and the u explaind
why you dont believe in god,
got made us so perfect example our dna and explain it to me i mean isnt it a perfect creation of god how perfectly its created if u dont believe in god what is your motive and why your here-meaning in th is world how can you explain that to me our to any 1 if you look at every living thing or dead thing they have a purpose and there is nothing in this world that does not have a purpose and our purpose is??? not to believe in god or believe in him and pray so we dont go to hell
 
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zen-r

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dont get me wrong but its not you who is saying all this its the devil talking your one of the unbeliever and your saying you dont believe and the u explaind
why you dont believe in got look the got made us perfect look at our dna and explain it to me i mean isnt it a perfect creation of god and dont u ever wonder why your here if u dont believe in god what is your motive and why your here how can you explain that to me our to any 1?

I didn't understand a word of that. A bit of punctuation & correct spelling might make it half-way intelligible.


I still find it hilarious how people who are arguing for the existence of a god want endless proof from the non-believers as to how anything could exist without there being a god.

And yet they never have & never will provide any proof of their own that there is a god. Double-standards?!!

Just because you guys can't comprehend how anything so complex as animals, plants, DNA etc could possibly have evolved, doesn't mean it hasn't. The limitation is in your imagination, not in the actual processes which occurred to create these things. If you were to show anyone from a few thousand years ago something like a TV or a mobile phone, they'd have thought it could only have been made by gods. They would also, like you, think that those objects were too wondrous & magical a creation to have been made by mere explainable processes.

Why is it so hard to imagine that the universe has always been here, or has been produced by a Big Bang, or some other process, & yet you have no trouble in thinking that your all-powerful god has always been here? Who made him? Tell me....I want an answer.

(Excuse my tone, but the nonsense being spouted throughout this thread by so many people really winds me up!)
 

davejh

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Zen-R, why do you find it easy to believe in an eternal uncreated universe, and yet not an eternal uncreated God? I'm sure you will understand my questioning, who made this eternal universe? It is the same reaction you have to my belief that there is an eternal uncreated God.

This is my first post here, as you have guessed, I am a christian. I grew up in a christian family, but didn't accept the faith as a family tradition, I found it for myself at the age of 18. I am currently in Ecuador (I'm from the UK) as a short missionary for God, every day I see more and more of God. At home, life is easy, we don't need a god anymore. We have a situation where we can look for alternative theories.

Evolution itself has evolved a lot, it is so very different from Darwin's original theory. His theories seem to have been based on observed natural selection or perhaps micro evolution (I apologise if my terms are not correct, I am not a scientist). It appears to me that the idea of macro evolution is taken on by faith, in the same way that atheists see my belief in God. But because it is a theory of man and not a belief in a plan of God, they are happy to believe it. I firmly believe that if a new theory came about that was more solid than evolution, atheists would happily convert, leaving evolution as a previous way of thinking adopted by humans with less information available. As I say, evolution itself it always changing to try and fill the many holes.

Perhaps look at it this way, if you are right, there is no life after death, there is no purpose in my life other than to please myself whilst I last, I have lost nothing to live with christian principles, to have purpose (albeit purpose based on a god that does not exist) and to put others before myself. I truly enjoy giving as much, if not more than receiving. To make a good difference in someone's life makes me feel good. But, if I am correct in my faith in an eternal God who will forgive me the stupid things I do in life because of my faith in the death of his Son, Jesus Christ, then I will be certainly enjoying my eternity more than the unbeliever. I do not despise atheists, I pray that they have an open mind. Perhaps if they look into it with an open mind, they will find the same proofs I have found in the bible and in God and may one day find his purpose in their life, and his great love.

I do ask that atheists here do not state their theories as fact and make out that our faith is all made up and baseless. If you look into the faith of a christian with an open mind, you may find many scientific proofs that other ex-atheists have found.

I have looked at as much of this argument as I can with an open mind, I would not be a christian if I didn't believe it made the most sense from the options availble to me. I firmly believe there is more in this world to prove God's guiding hand than the evolution of pure chance from a chemical soup billions of years ago.

Another point, many people say that God can't have made the earth about 6000 years ago as Bible believers believe because the rocks are proved to be older. Well assuming we are reading the facts right, and assuming my beliefs are right for a moment, it would be possible for God to make the world with rocks that look old, wouldn't it?

And who was it that asked for proof of miracles? Surely a miracle cannot be scientifically proved to be possible due to the very definition of a miracle? And again assuming my beliefs are right, surely God who can create the entire universe can therefore understand and manipulate his universe as he choses in a way that makes so sense to a human, limited to a view of the world from the created's eyes, not the creator's?

I look forward to reading replies here as none I have read so far have said anything that prove to me that the alternative faiths out there are correct, and that mine is not.
 

mjserv

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A lot of people tend to believe in God but they don't believe in the bible.

I do, and I can see why people forget or dont care because Jesus walked the earth along time ago, Can you fully understand the disciples and what they have seen. Reading Jesus's life through others.

example

It's like writing a book about "The King of Pop", Michael Jackson and telling children about how great of an artist he was without having technology, after generations and generations are kids really going to believe that anymore I know I wouldn't.
 

tweek1

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Yes, I do believe in God. ("Christian")

Now notice I say I believe in God, but not this thing we pass off as being "Christian". The church today is nothing like Jesus would want it to be, I believe it is now a breeding ground for hatred. We go to church every Sunday and automatically think we are better than everyone else.

I believe in God/Jesus, but not Religion.
 
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compass

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Zen-R, why do you find it easy to believe in an eternal uncreated universe, and yet not an eternal uncreated God? I'm sure you will understand my questioning, who made this eternal universe? It is the same reaction you have to my belief that there is an eternal uncreated God.

First, you've asked your question of Zen-R and I am not Zen-R, so apologies to both of you if you think I shouldn't answer this, but my opinion on this is that a non-religious person can simply say "I do not know" and leave it at that.
It does not follow that for every "I do not know" we need to assign the answer to some supernatural, superhuman entity that only "exists" because of the events out there that could not (yet) be explained.
But this is a question of faith, individual belief; I have no problem with that.
I know of "Christians" who, desperately trying to reconcile their last shreds of faith with their logic, common sense and knowledge say they now believe that God "made" the Big Bang and then let the Universe get on with it (thus admitting all modern science postulates, cosmology, astronomy, biology, geology and physics).

But you say some things in the rest of your post which I strongly disagree with.


Evolution itself has evolved a lot, it is so very different from Darwin's original theory.
Not true.
The Theory of Evolution has grown, we now have a proper explanation for the biochemical mechanisms that allow evolution to exist but the actual theory based on natural selection, mutation and adaptation is as true today as it was 100 years ago.


His theories seem to have been based on observed natural selection or perhaps micro evolution (I apologise if my terms are not correct, I am not a scientist). It appears to me that the idea of macro evolution is taken on by faith, in the same way that atheists see my belief in God.
Macroevolution is simply microevolution over much larger periods of time. If you admit one you admit the other.
I have seen some puerile Creationist arguments of the kind “I will never believe a fish can give birth to a rabbit” that purpote to show how ridiculous (macro)evolution is.

Well, I don’t believe a fish can give birth to a rabbit either and I do not think there is one biologist who thinks so (while sober). That is NOT what evolution maintains.
If that is the usage you give to the word “Macroevolution” then of course it is taken on by faith but not by people who know biology.


I firmly believe that if a new theory came about that was more solid than evolution, atheists would happily convert, leaving evolution as a previous way of thinking adopted by humans with less information available. As I say, evolution itself it always changing to try and fill the many holes.
What holes? So far, what predictions were made by evolutionists have been verified in real life. So far, no holes.



Perhaps look at it this way, if you are right, there is no life after death, there is no purpose in my life other than to please myself whilst I last, I have lost nothing to live with christian principles, to have purpose (albeit purpose based on a god that does not exist) and to put others before myself.
What? Why do you think that atheists have no purpose in life other than to please themselves? Who said so?


But, if I am correct in my faith in an eternal God who will forgive me the stupid things I do in life because of my faith in the death of his Son, Jesus Christ, then I will be certainly enjoying my eternity more than the unbeliever.
Oh, so this is the “Faith as Insurance” argument.
Well, if God is indeed just and loving and all-knowing (and it exists) then I think it more likely that such a God should and would forgive people for being agnostics who have otherwise lived life with respect and care for others rather than favouring murderers, rapists, abusers, malicious slanderers, etc. that “repent” after a life of tormenting others.

I look forward to reading replies here as none I have read so far have said anything that prove to me that the alternative faiths out there are correct, and that mine is not.
Nobody can prove that your faith is not correct.
Nobody can prove that any faith is not correct.

That does not mean that these faiths are correct. Can you prove that the old Olympian Gods do not exist or did not exist? No, you cannot. Nor can I for that matter.

But do I need the existence of the old Olympian Gods to explain my life and my surroundings and to give purpose and meaning to my life?
And do I have even one shred of evidence that is not hearsay (books containing stories of "facts" that may or may not have happened and cannot be verified or repeated also count as hearsay) about the existence of the Olympians (or any other God)?

No, I do not. And that is why I do not believe in any God.
 
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merrillmck

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Perhaps look at it this way, if you are right, there is no life after death, there is no purpose in my life other than to please myself whilst I last

Logical flaw. You're assuming either this or that. Another alternative is to not believe in life after death and still follow the golden rule. Or to not believe in life after death but derive pleasure from putting others before yourself.

Plenty of alternatives to your binary world.
 

archimatech

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God and the Da Vinci Code, It's all the same. The book of the Da Vinci Code is a roman and isn't true some of the fragments are linked bad and doesn't proof anything.

The Bible is not the same as a roman but is was more a code of law and a guide to live in that particular community i think. Some things ar historicly true and some parts of the book where added 200 years later and some things where skipped and matched over the years. It was also very handy for kings and kaisers to pick the bible up as code of law to control the people in their kingdoms.

Earlyer in history people had more gods.
The Maya, the Indians, the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Vikings, the Omaans did have multiple gods for each fenomen the didn't understand.
Christians believed that one god stood for all these fenomens ad a same time. But for almost everything their was a patron saint, so one god and many patron saints, or is it: many patron saints makes 1 god or 1 culture, just like the old Egypts had many gods in 1 culture just like the Greeks and the Romans.

Now a days more and more people believes in their selfs, in humanity because some things of the bible are just obsolete. Some other people believe in the old gods or has become a believer of old Gods and cultures. The new phonomen of this is the Maya Culture, very popular this days because they predict the end of the world on 12 december 2010 (read the article in dutch).

My websites:
http://articles.amt.pcriot.com
http://archimatech.amt.pcriot.com
http://cavalier.amt.pcriot.com
http://amt.pcriot.com
 
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fguy64

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....

Another point, many people say that God can't have made the earth about 6000 years ago as Bible believers believe because the rocks are proved to be older. Well assuming we are reading the facts right, and assuming my beliefs are right for a moment, it would be possible for God to make the world with rocks that look old, wouldn't it?

...

I look forward to reading replies here as none I have read so far have said anything that prove to me that the alternative faiths out there are correct, and that mine is not.

First point. Are you saying that you actually believe that the earth is about 6,000 years old? Does that include the sun and the moon and the stars as well? We could debate that if you want, but first let's clarify that you actually believe it's all just 6,000 years old. Then maybe make some kind of case for that, something other than "Maybe God just made the rocks look old"

Second point. I was gonna say the same.
 

ichwar

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First point. Are you saying that you actually believe that the earth is about 6,000 years old? Does that include the sun and the moon and the stars as well? We could debate that if you want, but first let's clarify that you actually believe it's all just 6,000 years old. Then maybe make some kind of case for that, something other than "Maybe God just made the rocks look old"
I'd love to debate that too, as I believe the universe is no older than 10,000 years.

And what do you mean about "rocks look old?" Of course some people use carbon dating to try and determine the age of rocks, but carbon dating relies on two big assumptions, namely: 1) That carbon is currently "disintegrating" at the same rate today as it always has, and 2) That these certain types of rocks contained the same amount of carbon at their formation as the same type of modern day rock contains at its formation. I think these two assumptions are no smaller than just assuming that there is a sovereign God.
 

merrillmck

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1) That carbon is currently "disintegrating" at the same rate today as it always has

I'm no chemist but ...

If there were serious problems with carbon-dating, there would be some phd student, some university lab, or some private lab working their tails off to create an experiment to show that it is flawed. In the case of the phd student, that alone would earn him a phd and probably a pretty nice $ job offer in the process.

While carbon has a radioactive decay that is useful for measuring years, other elements have radioactive decays that are measured milliseconds, seconds, minutes, and days. If these decay rates were erratic and unpredictable and you could confirm it with a repeatable test ... published paper ... phd ... $$.

Whoever came up with carbon-dating had plenty of experiments and evidence to support his/her theory. And anytime something new appears in science, other students and scientists quickly criticize and/or leverage the new technology in a rush to get their own critically reviewed publications on the market first.

So, until science casts more doubt on carbon-dating ... I'm going to lean in the direction that it is pretty accurate.
 

zen-r

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I'd love to debate that too, as I believe the universe is no older than 10,000 years.

And what do you mean about "rocks look old?" Of course some people use carbon dating to try and determine the age of rocks, but carbon dating relies on two big assumptions, namely: 1) That carbon is currently "disintegrating" at the same rate today as it always has, and 2) That these certain types of rocks contained the same amount of carbon at their formation as the same type of modern day rock contains at its formation. I think these two assumptions are no smaller than just assuming that there is a sovereign God.

Still more of the same nit-picking from the religious types.

"Big assumption"? LMFAO!!

Religion is based on nothing more than hand-me down stories. No evidence. No facts. All just total assumptions that the stories are true. I don't see you nit-picking at their evidence.

Science has good evidence, which it is improving upon & refining all the time. As more is learned, it is able to fill in more of the missing gaps in our understanding of how things work, where they came from etc. Religion has nothing. No answers. No understanding of how things work. No quest to seek more answers. Just a simple "have faith". This is one reason why so many people like religion so much. It isn't mentally taxing. Having "faith" means you don't have to question or try to work things out. You just take everything you are told blindly, with no questions. The fact that nothing religion says makes any sense doesn't matter then, because you aren't questioning anything.

Some people are sheep in this world. Others try to think for themselves. Isn't it funny how the vast majority of you have the same religion as your parents. Bit of a coincidence that, isn't it?!!

I'm still waiting for for someone to answer my question of where their god came from. Who made him. Come on.

Still waiting........
 
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rebellion

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I get into a war with my self when I think about the things in the universe. Some times I turn to saying that is science. Sometimes I say that is a god. I do believe in evolution though, the signs are very clear.
 

ichwar

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Still more of the same nit-picking from the religious types.

"Big assumption"? LMFAO!!
It's a big assumption because if that assumption is wrong, the whole carbon-dating theory falls totally to bits. And with it goes a lot of 'evidence' for old earth.

Religion is based on nothing more than hand-me down stories. No evidence. No facts. All just total assumptions that the stories are true. I don't see you nit-picking at their evidence.

Science has good evidence, which is it improving upon & refining all the time. As more is learned, it is able to fill in more of the missing gaps in our understanding of how things work, where they came from etc. Religion has nothing. No answers. No understanding of how things work. No quest to seek more answers. Just a simple "have faith". This is one reason why so many people like religion so much. It isn't mentally taxing. Having "faith" means you don't have to question or try to work things out. You just take everything you are told blindly, with no questions. The fact that nothing religion says makes any sense doesn't matter then, because you aren't questioning anything.
Of course, if that's what you want to blindly believe, there's no way I or anyone else here can ever change your mind.

But...

You still need to get back in touch with reality.
Can you explain how many of history's greatest scientists were creationists?
Just a quick list so you can see what I mean: Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johann Kepler, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton, Cotton Mather, Samuel F.B. Morse, Gregor Mendel, Louis Pasteur, James Clerk Maxwell.

You see then that not only have plenty of famous scientists been creationists, but also, we who believe in a Creator are NOT anti-science.

Some people are sheep in this world. Others try to think for themselves. Isn't it funny how the vast majority of you have the same religion as your parents. Bit of a coincidence that, isn't it?!!
No, not coincidence.
Is it coincidence that you have the same religion as your parents?

I'm still waiting for for someone to answer my question of where their god came from. Who made him. Come on.

Still waiting........
I'll answer that once you can explain to me where the universe came from. Who made it?
 

zen-r

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It's a big assumption because if that assumption is wrong, the whole carbon-dating theory falls totally to bits. And with it goes a lot of 'evidence' for old earth.


Of course, if that's what you want to blindly believe, there's no way I or anyone else here can ever change your mind.

But...

You still need to get back in touch with reality.
Can you explain how many of history's greatest scientists were creationists?
Just a quick list so you can see what I mean: Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johann Kepler, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton, Cotton Mather, Samuel F.B. Morse, Gregor Mendel, Louis Pasteur, James Clerk Maxwell.

You see then that not only have plenty of famous scientists been creationists, but also, we who believe in a Creator are NOT anti-science.


No, not coincidence.
Is it coincidence that you have the same religion as your parents?


I'll answer that once you can explain to me where the universe came from. Who made it?

No. You've spent a large part of this thread doubting clear evidence provided by non-religious people here. You've got them to do all the work in answering more & more questions.

It's time to get you to start providing your evidence. I'm not interested in non-evidence such as "it's written in a book" or "my parents taught me this, so it must be true". I want the same clear evidence of your god, in the same way that we have already provided you in terms of scientific facts.

Still waiting.......
 
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ichwar

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Hmmm, I see you aren't like truthguild who will at least attempt to answer objections. Too bad he seems to have left these forums. Did I scare him off?

But anyways, you can't give me clear evidence that the earth evolved from nothing, so why should I give you clear evidence that God exists.

But here's my citation for the list I just gave you.
http://creation.com/creation-scientists
Go back to any post in this thread and find something I said there, and I'll be happy to provide you citation for that!
 

zen-r

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I respect everyone's right to believe in whatever religion or non-religion they choose to. Freedom of belief & expression is a wonderful thing in a civilised, integrated society (aspects which are sadly lacking in some societies).

What I don't appreciate though, is having one-sided conversations where one side thinks they can get away with providing no evidence to support any of their wild claims, & still has the cheek to continually scrutinise the other side which is constantly providing evidence to support their own beliefs.

@ichwar.....OK then, you have no evidence of your god that you wish to provide, no evidence of who made him, no evidence of how he made everything else, no explanation as to why there are so many different belief systems out there if your god is so self-evident & so powerful. I guess that's you out of any conversation here then. Bye!
bye.gif


Re. the Earth being no more than 10,000 years old: Just because you find the clear evidence of carbon dating too hard to understand, & wish to mis-describe actual evidence as "assumptions", then kindly try not to ignore all the other evidence. Before you start disputing the additional geological evidence, fossil evidence, evolutionary evidence etc - don't bother. Just start to provide us with evidence to support your beliefs. Oh no, wait, you couldn't do that could you? - because it's all just unsubstantiated hand-me down stories.

....You still need to get back in touch with reality.
Can you explain how many of history's greatest scientists were creationists?
Just a quick list so you can see what I mean: Nicholas Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johann Kepler, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton, Cotton Mather, Samuel F.B. Morse, Gregor Mendel, Louis Pasteur, James Clerk Maxwell.

You see then that not only have plenty of famous scientists been creationists, but also, we who believe in a Creator are NOT anti-science.....

You seem to have lost the plot completely with this one. Just because a scientist discovers something, doesn't mean they know all the answers. They can also believe in a god, just as they can also believe in fairies. Science isn't a religion, it's a system of acquiring information - information which can be verified by others using the same methodology, & is built on underlying principles. Unfortunately, religion doesn't have any wish to be checked & verified, because there is no substance to it.

If you believe in a creator, you may not profess to being anti-science, but you are in fact blatantly disregarding it's principles, whenever it suits you.

.....No, not coincidence.
Is it coincidence that you have the same religion as your parents?....

Well Duh!!! That's my point. It isn't a coincidence. People haven't arrived upon their religion or faith because they worked anything out, or because they've looked at all the other faiths & non-faiths out there & decided that this faith is the right one because of any evidence. No, one's religion/faith is usually what one has been spoon-fed (dare I say "brain-washed"?) with since an early age.

There are so many belief systems out there, some involving gods, some not, & they go back as far as cave-man times. And kids generally stick blindly to what they have been indoctrinated into by their parents. To them, of course, their system is always the right one, & everyone else is wrong.

As to science not providing all the evidence & facts yet - it doesn't need to, it is a work in progress. In relation to how the universe exists, for example, what science is doing is looking for answers, & attempting to produce facts with evidence to support it. It is enough to say that "these are the possibilities we have come up with so far, & there could be more". Thus science doesn't say that any one theory must be right or wrong, it allows for alternatives.

Religion, on the other hand allows for no alternatives & yet provides no answers. Creationists, for example, insist everything must be made by a god, no other explanation is possible. Unfortunately, as I already stated, this explains nothing. It seduces people with its simplicity ("one Being has made everything") & yet, it actually hides the nonsense on which it is based. In reality, of course, it now just passes the problem onto new questions such as ;

"where did this god come from?", "how can it make something from nothing?", "why would it bother to make humans which didn't previously exist, only to then insist they love it & follow its rules or else get sent to a hell?", "so are we just this god's play-things?", "why is there so much suffering in this world?", "why doesn't my god just let everyone know that he exists, rather than leaving most people on this planet not believing in him/having my religion?", and "why would you even want a god as selfish & cruel as this to exist?"

And of course, any attempt at an answer would be mere speculation, or taken from a book of fiction.


I'm not going down the road that others have been manipulated into going down, in this thread: of providing endless evidence to endless questions - because people of religion aren't interested - they won't even hear what is said.

Why waste my time? Plenty of other people have tried in this thread already. All the "faithful" want is a blind faith to believe in, where they don't have to check for any evidence. It's all nice & neatly arranged for them as a set of rules, which they must not question or seek evidence for.

And their motivation for having a religion is obvious: To put them in the good-books of someone powerful. To earn their place in a heaven after they're dead. To give them a feeling of moral superiority over the heathen. To take away their responsibility to think for themselves. To give their lives some sort of meaning. Or many similar such delusional concepts. All quite selfish, of course.

Sorry guys, there most likely is no pre-determined meaning or purpose to life, & even if there was one, there's no reason to suppose that it could only be a good or worthwhile purpose.

Time to smell the coffee? No, of course not. You'll all just carry on in your own little parentally determined lifestyles. I'm not foolish enough to think that anything I've written here will have a jot of influence on you.

But Oh Well, I at least offered you an olive branch to the sad reality that is Life.

I have every respect for all of you, whatever your beliefs. But just don't try to make out that unsubstantiated stories are anything more than fairy stories.


P.S. Still waiting...........



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davejh

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Hey, you have talked to much that I won't begin to come up with an answer for everything you ask Zen-R, mainly because it is way later than I wanted to be up already and because I am not well atm.

However, you constantly say that "religious" people have not a scrap of evidence for what they believe in, well that certainly isn't right. I am no scientist, but science is not against religion as you may believe. It does, in fact, back up so many things stated in the bible. There are many scientific principals clearly written in the bible that are not discovered by man (through science) until thousands of years later. The stories of the bible can be backed up with archeological proof (the walls of Jericho falling vertically for example, not pushed over or destroyed by time and neglect, but just collapsed upon themselves, as never seen before in ancient ruins, Noah's ark; proof of a huge flood found in rock layers etc), it is sad to see you take that approach to religions in general, and very sad to see you take that stance against my faith in Jesus, whereby you assume that the bible is all made up and that we do not question anything at all. There are scientists who were atheists searching for the truth who have decided the actual scientific proof weighs so much further towards creationism than towards evolution (and towards other bible aspects) that they have become christians themselves. I am afraid you have not looked into this nearly as much as you would like us to believe.

And about Darwin's ideas not having changed, but to have grown into our theory of evolution today? Did he not think we came from monkeys? Surely you are not still holding onto that idea? Even your evolutionist scientist friends do not believe that any more.

In my opinion, there will never be absolute proof of how the universe came about, whether God exists, where humans came from etc, it is up to us to decide which of the many theories out there is for us. I have an open mind and if anyone could give me proof against my God, or absolute proof of their theory then it would not be sensible to hold to my beliefs, but as I say, my opinion is that that will never happen. We can argue about this all our lives, but if you are determined to stick to your argument because you do not want to believe in the eternal God that I do, then it would be totally fruitless.

I also assume that you have not actually read the bible, because you discredit it as such useless rubbish with no real grounding when in fact, if you look into it, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support what is written.

For either of us to assume that our theory (as it is in each other's eyes) is the only real answer to our many questions is surely something we cannot do with our own individually small amounts of knowledge. Therefore for you to pour such scorn on my ideals, or the ideals of like-minded here, is wrong, at least until you can get your absolute proof, so please refrain from doing so. You will notice that I have not reacted in such a manner to your's. I will say that I do not understand everything, I certainly do not know the answer to all the questions you could ask me, but because I have faith in a creative, eternal God who is beyond our understanding and outisde of the dimension of time in which I believed he placed us, that I can believe that my faith is trueas it makes sense to me that I would not understand all the complexities of his creation. Again I say that I hope you keep an open mind, because it seems to me at the moment that your heart is hard, and unwilling to accept the possibility of another answer to your many questions. I'll pray for you.
 

zen-r

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So where are these facts that you talk of?

A story about there being a flood sometime in the past, & possible evidence of a flood sometime in the past, hardly ties together as proof of a god now, does it?!

As for some of the things you wrote - they are so mis-informed they don't even merit a response.

Therefore for you to pour such scorn on my ideals, or the ideals of like-minded here, is wrong, at least until you can get your absolute proof, so please refrain from doing so.

I am entitled to my views, & to state them in my previous post. If you don't like it that I have different views to yourself, sorry, but TOUGH!

As a missionary, your trade has a history of forcing it's view (Christianity) on the cultures of poor & deprived third world countries. Don't even get me started on that!


P.S. Still waiting................
 
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