Gmail Desktop Application

[allofus]

That STILL isn't evidence of you being able to search other's emails. And do you have any evidence of people paying to access the emails? (And why amn't I affected at all if my emails, like you say, are being searched.)

At no point did I say that I could search other people's emails. Why would I try to present evidence for something I have not said?

I correctly stated that server content can be searched and since the topic is related to google who run mail servers, among other things I rightly pointed out the 'capability. The patriot act makes it legal for gov't agencies to access electronic comms. Do you think they just pluck this stuff out by sniffing packets? or do you think they go to the servers with a warrant? or both?

Again you are going to say, that is not evidence, present evidence, bla bla...

BTW, legally providers cannot read the email on their servers in many countries since the same laws that apply to privacy of mail apply. (I'm not sure about specifics though for UK. I know Germany is quite strong on the matter.) Automated processing by programs (note, not the same as reading by humans) is fine for me. I assume you use a spam filter too? I wonder how that works? It might just be that a spam filter works by automatically processing all incoming mail And what "exploits" are you referring to?

Again, I never mentioned exploits, but capability and anti-terror legislation and such does make these activities legal for certain circumstances.

It is widely known that Google is well involved in data mining, I'm not trying to deny that, but you are giving the whole situation completely over-exaggerated dimensions... And I would prefer to keep my head the way it is -- it has worked quite well so far.

Evidence, please? May I quote "sweeping statements" again?

Evidence? what on earth do you think a search engine is? If that is not the most blatant in your face data-miner then I am not sure what a data-miner would be.... lol

Noble aims, but I think you are deluded in what method to use to reach this. Google are amassing colossal amounts of data, but it is highly unlikely they can majorly affect the world (and what's more in a bad way) because of that. If you want to fix the world you'd be better off combatting undemocratic governments, being active about environmental problems (like Al Gore), getting the British Government to act as a democratic government should (for the people) etc. These are much more important than the fact that Google is a data-mining corporation. (I suppose the main reason you are against google is because of their success, they are actually a pretty innovative company...)

Again you are countering an argument that was not made by myself. You say I am deluded but you are arguing against your own argument... If that is not delusional then what is?

If you believe Al Gore that is fine, if you have taken time out to cross examine his, and indeed the IPCC's data you would maybe not be so keen to suggest I should be following his example.

Oh and before you say the same repetitive reply, find your own evidence. You have not presented a single shread of evidence and have misrepresented things I have wrote.

Maybe you did not quote all of the links I posted for a reason, but it is not important.

And regarding google analytics use on your site: if google is so bad, then why do the rest of your site team still use it: basically, you are implying that either you or your team members are deluded. If your team members are so deluded (BTW, yet another majority!), then why do you still work with them, and why do you promote a site which itself uses services from an "evil" company -- or maybe they are right that google isn't that bad? If you are the deluded one however, then... well, there's not much we can do.
You also said:
It wasn't an argument but a question...

If you actually knew any of the people you are seeking to insult then maybe there would be a slight possibility that you were close to the mark, but you do not, including me. So regardless of having no evidence to present, instead opting to analyse a complex set of circumstances of how we came to be using google analytics that you have no knowledge of have determined that someone is likely deluded. You also wrongly assumed that I was the only person in our group who are aware of some of the less than positive activities that google have been involved with.

"maybe they are right that google is not that bad"
Actually google are not that good, there is nobody in our group that disagrees with this, but as I said already google visit our site anyway, google catalogue our site already and some of their competitors are even worse than google.

Also;

I have not said that google are evil. "Do no evil" is google's slogan, not mine.

Google was just one of the providers considered for analytical data by us and google in spite of some of it's exploits does have less baggage than other corporations offering similar.

I have not implied for even a second that google is evil, or that google is the worst corporation in it's field, far from it.

There are far worse corporations have a presence on the internet and your love affair with google is quite possibly based on false impressions of what google has done in the past and continues to develop now and into the future.

If I was to only engage with 100% ethical, zero negative action groups then my ISP, Computer Manufacturer, Power Supply, Cable provider, OS developer would be out of the question. The best we can all do is opt for the best possible options under the current circumstances and do our bit to change things.



If you want to debate me on a topic that is fine, if you want to imply I said this, when I said that, call my reputation, sanity or motives into question because you have a differing opinion that is fine too.

You can take responsibility for that yourself my friend.

I do however think you could probably make better use of your time trying to learn things instead of trying to deny them!!

Respect where deserving;

MattG - britishnproud

p.s my friend Steve thinks you are funny, he asked me to tell you that, that and find happiness!

 

[ah-blabla]

At no point did I say that I could search other people's emails. Why would I try to present evidence for something I have not said?

You implied it.

I correctly stated that server content can be searched and since the topic is related to google who run mail servers, among other things I rightly pointed out the 'capability. The patriot act makes it legal for gov't agencies to access electronic comms. Do you think they just pluck this stuff out by sniffing packets? or do you think they go to the servers with a warrant? or both?

That is valid for almost all mail hosters, so you can't use this as an anti google argument. Why do you use the internet at all if you are so afraid of surveillance? (Why are you afraid of surveillance?) Knowing the US government they will sniff packets.

Again, I never mentioned exploits, but capability and anti-terror legislation and such does make these activities legal for certain circumstances.

I quote your own words:

google profile their exploits on the internet

If that isn't a mention of exploits, what is it?

If you believe Al Gore that is fine, if you have taken time out to cross examine his, and indeed the IPCC's data you would maybe not be so keen to suggest I should be following his example.

I have indeed looked at IPCC data, and don't have much to question about it. In fact, I would say their findings are rather optimistic. If you want some good data just highlighting human's effect on the climate look here. That's just CO2 data, it doesn't prove much, but it is to be expected that such large changes will have (bad) effects on the global climate.

I have not implied for even a second that google is evil, or that google is the worst corporation in it's field, far from it.

Yes, I see: let me take just one example:

Google is just one of many corporations that has ties to projects and ambitions that are not always going to be in our best interests

And another:

Google also developed software that enables your microphone to listen to your bg noise so they can better profile you... Dog Bark, pet food adverts, child crying, e-number + abortion adverts and of course far worse.

"far worse"? If that's not a direct implication of evil, then I don't know what it is.

If you actually knew any of the people you are seeking to insult then maybe there would be a slight possibility that you were close to the mark, but you do not, including me. So regardless of having no evidence to present, instead opting to analyse a complex set of circumstances of how we came to be using google analytics that you have no knowledge of have determined that someone is likely deluded. You also wrongly assumed that I was the only person in our group who are aware of some of the less than positive activities that google have been involved with.

I wasn't seeking to insult. I was seeking to point out the hypocrisy of someone using google services despite their having said that they avoid google as much as possible. The evidence I used was your stating that it was a group decision, where the others wanted adsense (implying you were against the use).

the team decides and the team wanted analytics.

Google was just one of the providers considered for analytical data by us and google in spite of some of it's exploits does have less baggage than other corporations offering similar.

BTW you can analyse data just as well yourself. There is no need to run foreign code to see who visits your site: your own server can do the same. (It might not be as convenient, but at least you are free from google that way.)

and your love affair with google is quite possibly based on false impressions of what google has done in the past and continues to develop now and into the future.

Love affair? Slanderous statements is what I say... I have continously stated the fact that google is a data-mining / data-amassing company. I have also stated (the FACT) that they are quite innovative as well.

If I was to only engage with 100% ethical, zero negative action groups then my ISP, Computer Manufacturer, Power Supply, Cable provider, OS developer would be out of the question. The best we can all do is opt for the best possible options under the current circumstances and do our bit to change things.

Why not abandon using a computer at all? Would save you all the ethical baggage and keep you free from surveillance.

MattG

I know you've tried so many excuses on the analytics topic, but if I'm correct "your" webpage says (in the source)

<!-- google analytics added by MattG -->

So it was definetely YOU that added adsense. That is undeniable. The rest isn't particularly relevant..

 

[adamparkzer]

I want an application/website for Google where I can take care of Gmail, Google Voice, Google Calendar, Google Adsense, and everything Google from one screen.

 

[allofus]

ah-blabla;

1- I did not imply evil, evil does not exist. It is religious idiology.

2- If you had quoted my words, my words would still be there

3- Profiling their exploits, that is google bragging about their exploiting the markets, technology and buying power. You really are clutching at straws.

4- That is valid for almost all mail hosters, so you can't use this as an anti google argument.
Did I say that only google do this?
It is a legitimate argument and you have absolutely no authority to tell me what I can, and cannot use in an argument. One needs to consider encrypting emails and such, not giving away too much personal info and protecting your own privacy. Or follow the advice of our good friend ah-blabla and not use this argument!!! amusing...

Because your info is up for grabs in other places it is not ok to point this out about google!
That'l catch on.
This man should not be tried for murdering 1 man because hitler murdered millions!!
amusing comparison!

5- I have not made any excuses Sir, I was called into question by you and gave you a frank and honest explanation of why we use analytics. I do not need to make excuses for using analytics. This thread is not related to my activities, but google's.

Did I say it was not me?
NO!
I do all of our web admins stuff.

What is going on here is frankly dull.

If you want to believe that google is ok, that is fine, if you want to clutch at straws and suggest I IMPLIED things then again that is fine, if you think I am going to retract my statements because you repeatedly either misunderstand 'exploits' or misrepresent 'implied' then it ain't happening.

You are basically calling me out because I pointed out some truths about google, I did not lie and I certainly did not pretend never to use google.

I hope you take a look at some of the links I posted here, might realise that the rabbit hole goes far deeper than google.

As for doing analytics ourselves;

If you know a way to display the basic, poorly represented analytical data collected in cpanel to our team in a manner even close to google analytics without needing to provide everyone with cpanel username and password then I would like to see how it is done. I am not a web guru like you sir.



Google are not an ethics based company and the argument has turned into excuses for me using it, guess what, I use google.com to search and watch google video's too and uploaded stuff there.

I watch youtube and also use gmail...


So clearly google must have never done anything that is unethical. Obviously.... lol

I am the real problem.

I stated a case, presented evidence and corroborative data and your counter argument is based on conjecture and the inability to place a few sentences in context, that and your over-active imagination...

far worse, implies evil... That is hilarious...

I shall not be replying to your cloud cuckoo straw man pointless arguments any more in this thread, but I am sure I will see you on here again, being the words smith that you are.

Enjoy life a bit more my friend, do not look for reasons to hate your allies. I have caused you no harm, wrote no lies and you seem to have so desperately sought to find reason to fight.


I am copy-n-pasting this article to our forums because I know it will serve us well as a demonstration of how to correctly deal with provocation and debate with ignorant people.

Had you actually correctly quoted me and correctly opposed my position I would have left this alone, but you have not done so.

On a bright note;
Everyone I have showed this to so far think you are a really nice person. One lady actually said

"Wow he must be very intelligent Matt. He knows more about us than we do"

Thanks for the entertaining debate buddy!

So long (for now) unsubscribing from thread... argue with yourself in my absence if you wish!!! Your life to waste!

 

[ah-blabla]

I did not imply evil, evil does not exist. It is religious idiology.

The problem here is that your understanding of evil is different from the common understanding of evil. The common understanding of evil is this (Oxford English dictionary.) You are quite clearly suggesting that what google does is "deeply immoral and malevolent" satisfying that definition. If you have a different definition, then that is your problem. I am using the definition of evil most english speaking people use.

If you had quoted my words, my words would still be there

If you're talking about the exploits, it's in this post.

Profiling their exploits, that is google bragging about their exploiting the markets, technology and buying power. You really are clutching at straws.

No: I'm just showing that you did indeed mention exploits despite you trying to deny it. I was just pointing out the fact that you are denying having stated something which you quite clearly stated in earlier posts.

Did I say that only google do this?
It is a legitimate argument and you have absolutely no authority to tell me what I can, and cannot use in an argument. One needs to consider encrypting emails and such, not giving away too much personal info and protecting your own privacy. Or follow the advice of our good friend ah-blabla and not use this argument!!! amusing...

If you use this argument, you have to make it clear that it applies to all hosters, since you used it specifically as an anti google argument, suggesting other hosters aren't included. And if I had something I really need to keep private I would encrypt, but I generally don't trust computers for anything important.

Because your info is up for grabs in other places it is not ok to point this out about google!
That'l catch on.
This man should not be tried for murdering 1 man because hitler murdered millions!!
amusing comparison!

My line of thought doesn't suggest anything like that in the slightest. I don't actually understand how you got to that conclusion either, but maybe someone else could explain.

If you want to believe that google is ok, that is fine, if you want to clutch at straws and suggest I IMPLIED things then again that is fine, if you think I am going to retract my statements because you repeatedly either misunderstand 'exploits' or misrepresent 'implied' then it ain't happening.

Exploits was your own word, as shown above.

You are basically calling me out because I pointed out some truths about google, I did not lie and I certainly did not pretend never to use google.

I actually agreed with you about Google's control over data, those are truths, but you are giving the issues unproportional dimensions. However, you did say

GOOGLE I stay away from them as much as possible.

And BTW, google does do some good things, like standing in for net neutrality, although depending on your perspective they may not be handling with altruistic motives.

Enjoy life a bit more my friend, do not look for reasons to hate your allies. I have caused you no harm, wrote no lies and you seem to have so desperately sought to find reason to fight.

I do actually enjoy life quite a lot and don't see grave problems in everything that could seem wrong in the slightest. You didn't write lies (and I never said you did). However there have been numerous inconsistencies in what you have written, which I have tried pointing out.

I am copy-n-pasting this article to our forums because I know it will serve us well as a demonstration of how to correctly deal with provocation and debate with ignorant people.

Ignorant? I think that's what one calls global warming deniers which you quite probably are (note I'm not saying you are, I am only stating high probability thereof) since you are so against the IPCC.

Had you actually correctly quoted me and correctly opposed my position I would have left this alone, but you have not done so.

All quotations are taken from posts you have written in the thread...

I hope you take a look at some of the links I posted here, might realise that the rabbit hole goes far deeper than google.

I already realise that their is lot of surveillance and privacy invasion on the internet. I know google have a lot of power/potential in this. I don't have any private data (in digital form) worth protecting anyway, so I'm not particularly fearful. I know about US internet monitoring etc. There is a good reason for why I no longer live in the UK where privacy is going downhill -- then again life in Britain is pretty miserable generally, so the privacy issue isn't that major.


BTW, there is a google analytics alternative called piwik -- it's a php/javascript mix you can install on your own server. I think I'll write a tutorial on it soon.

Back on topic

I want an application/website for Google where I can take care of Gmail, Google Voice, Google Calendar, Google Adsense, and everything Google from one screen.

It is actually possible to use Gmail, calendar and voice on your personal google page (iGoogle I think it's called) already.

Edit: there is also an adsense widget available. --> It's all possible already.

 

[adamparkzer]

Back on topic

It is actually possible to use Gmail, calendar and voice on your personal google page (iGoogle I think it's called) already.

Edit: there is also an adsense widget available. --> It's all possible already.

Could you tell me more about this widget, or a URL to where I can find and read more about it?

 

[techgeek1499]

I use Windows Live Messenger and I have it set up with my gmail, my website, and my main email accounts and it works nicely!

 

[ah-blabla]

Could you tell me more about this widget, or a URL to where I can find and read more about it?

If you're logged in with your google account (i.e. via gmail etc.) go to google.com, at the top right select iGoogle, and then you can customise the page, etc. Widgets can be found using "Add stuff".

 

[vineethmhn]

GMail offers POP, SMTP and IMAP access to its mailboxes. So it is open to most of the desktop mail clients including Outlook and Thunder Bird.

Last year I came across an email client called IncrediMail which had some very interesting graphics and personalization features.

 

[tmaloof]

I would love to see that in Microsoft Outlook

You can use gmail in Outlook but it's not as effective. It's best to use Gmail via the web as it's most powerful in the online version. You aren't subject to outlook hangs and such

 

[jtwhite]

You can use gmail in Outlook but it's not as effective. It's best to use Gmail via the web as it's most powerful in the online version. You aren't subject to outlook hangs and such

Yeah, I like the Web version too. I just wish there was a desktop version.

 

[Danielx386]

^ That what I want, like outlook but with threaded view

 

[marc316]

i would love something like that, or something that will ssend emal notifications to your cell.

 

[allofus]

The problem here is that your understanding of evil is different from the common understanding of evil. The common understanding of evil is this (Oxford English dictionary.) You are quite clearly suggesting that what google does is "deeply immoral and malevolent" satisfying that definition. If you have a different definition, then that is your problem. I am using the definition of evil most english speaking people use.

Like I said 'Evil probably does not exist. I did not attempt to use a word in a way that 'normal people' do not use it, maybe implying that I am not normal, but what is?. I did not accuse google of being evil, I do not acknowledge the existence of a religious concept called 'evil' and the word evil is used in the google motto. NOT MY WORDS!!!' so therefore I am not implying anything evil, period..... I DID NOT CALL OR INSINUATE ANYTHING EVIL....

My frank and honest opinion. Evil is for the needy and those needing excuses. Fake alibi and excuses for the gullible who would rather say I believe than accept that they simply DO NOT KNOW. I simply do not know. If there is evil I cannot touch it, feel it, grade it, prove it so therefore it might not be real...

Please ah-blabla do not question my credibility. I offered my opinions and a few links to back up how and why I formulated my opinion on google. You have suggested I am dishonest, or should I say that I have interpreted a couple of your responses to be a challenge on my integrity.

If you're talking about the exploits, it's in this post.

No: I'm just showing that you did indeed mention exploits despite you trying to deny it. I was just pointing out the fact that you are denying having stated something which you quite clearly stated in earlier posts.

Explaining my reasoning and expanding on my original posts is everything but 'denial' regardless of your misunderstanding or my lack of explanation of the original usage of the word exploits.

If you use this argument, you have to make it clear that it applies to all hosters, since you used it specifically as an anti google argument, suggesting other hosters aren't included. And if I had something I really need to keep private I would encrypt, but I generally don't trust computers for anything important.

Not at all. The topic is related to google and my suggestion was that google have abilities that are not to be trusted blindly. There are actually court cases in the USA that involve google and server access and info related to said servers. Not a whim on my part, but genuine concern shared by the USA Supreme court.

And BTW, google does do some good things, like standing in for net neutrality, although depending on your perspective they may not be handling with altruistic motives.

Tell that to the chinese, vizavee 'Great Firewall of china..... Say one thing, do another, hence my quote of the google motto 'do no evil'. According to the oxford dictionary definition of the word evil I suspect that many chinese peiople as well as many none chinese human rights activists would consider actions louder than words (motto's).

I do actually enjoy life quite a lot and don't see grave problems in everything that could seem wrong in the slightest. You didn't write lies (and I never said you did). However there have been numerous inconsistencies in what you have written, which I have tried pointing out.

Ignorant? I think that's what one calls global warming deniers which you quite probably are (note I'm not saying you are, I am only stating high probability thereof) since you are so against the IPCC.

I am happy for you. However the IPCC is not something that should be tied to your happiness or my assumed 'global warming denial' and honestly any adult with a modicum of intellect can accept that the real debate is not one of 'Global Warming' but Climate Change and the possible causes. Therefore I am not a global warming denier, but a challenger to teh flawed science proposed by Al Gore and the IPCC. Do you have a problem with that?

All quotations are taken from posts you have written in the thread...

Exploits was a word used by me, very observant of you. The problem is not one of whether or not I used a word, but whether or not you insinuated my usage in context. That is why I responded with a lamen explanation of what I was meaning by the exploits of google and the issue of contention now is your use of the word denial. Tut Tut.

I already realise that their is lot of surveillance and privacy invasion on the internet. I know google have a lot of power/potential in this. I don't have any private data (in digital form) worth protecting anyway, so I'm not particularly fearful. I know about US internet monitoring etc. There is a good reason for why I no longer live in the UK where privacy is going downhill -- then again life in Britain is pretty miserable generally, so the privacy issue isn't that major.

I hear you brother, except for the privacy issue not being that major. Actually the phrase 'possession is 9/10th's of the law' has an ever more profound meaning when said possession is removed from the individual and handed to the powerful or the government. Moreso when said possessions include our most intimate details. We offer ourselves to google when we agree to their legalese (terms).

BTW, there is a google analytics alternative called piwik -- it's a php/javascript mix you can install on your own server. I think I'll write a tutorial on it soon.

Thanks for the heads up, will be google'ing it later and looking out for your tutorial, thanks.


ah-blabla I thank you for this exchange because I accept that there are certain things that I have written that are too simple for the average person to grasp. What I have learned from you is that 1 word can be taken out of context and the beholder is then free to interpret however they see fit.I accept that sStraw man arguments can easily be constructed when sentences are formed and naively I neglected to realise that some readers may not understand teh concept of sentence or be able to place a single word into the context of the sentence, or indeed (getting really complicated) paragraph to which it exists.

The best approach I have found to avoid pointless confrontation is to use just 1 word at a time.

word .
word .

I also realise that there are only 3 reasons why an individual would likely defend a corporation when clear evidence is persented.

1. vested interest
2. ignorance
3. ego

1 is irrefutable, 2 is dependant on a reasonable education and 3 is not something I have time or patience to stroke.

In short I have realised that it is not my place to argue with ignorant, egotistical sell-outs.

ah-blabla I am not suggesting you are 1,2 or 3 any more than you were accusing me of whatever it was you were trying to suggest.

1, doubtful... you criticised google also.
2, clearly you are a very smart guy, I would go as far as to say you know things.
3, if this effort is anything to go by, VERY SMALL! well done you!

ah-blabla and everyone else, like it or not, realise it or not

google is not your friend.

google is a 'for-profit' corporation, not a charity.

1'st shareholders............................

 

[ah-blabla]

I am happy for you. However the IPCC is not something that should be tied to your happiness or my assumed 'global warming denial' and honestly any adult with a modicum of intellect can accept that the real debate is not one of 'Global Warming' but Climate Change and the possible causes. Therefore I am not a global warming denier, but a challenger to teh flawed science proposed by Al Gore and the IPCC. Do you have a problem with that?

I still have a problem with this. Climate Change is the same as Global Warming, since the current changes to the climate are --- warming of the climate. This "flawed" science isn't only done by the IPCC, and Al Gore isn't a scientist: if you look through some of the most reputed scientific journals (Nature, Science to name 2 of the most important) you will find lots of research into climate change, and global warming is pretty much confirmed by all the research there. So to put it nicely: your word against the words of a horde of (well-qualified and world-renowned) scientists?

I hear you brother, except for the privacy issue not being that major. Actually the phrase 'possession is 9/10th's of the law' has an ever more profound meaning when said possession is removed from the individual and handed to the powerful or the government. Moreso when said possessions include our most intimate details. We offer ourselves to google when we agree to their legalese (terms).

I suppose how important privacy is depends on ones use of email. I don't do anything important through email, so I don't really care too much, (and you can always encrypt your emails, just using webmails as a relay service, which you should do anyway: the US government is also allowed to listen to all internet communications, and if your enencrypted email goes through the US, they could read it easily.). For me having a reliable service is more important: I couldn't care less if someone read that I have training at time so and so on day so and so, that I got 95% in my last test that I sat etc, or tried looking at my automated backups from X10 (which I will soon encrypt as well). If I did have important emails, I would use a private account though; I do see the problem if you are sending private things; my view of things was slightly obscured due to a different perspective on email.

I also realise that there are only 3 reasons why an individual would likely defend a corporation when clear evidence is persented.

1. vested interest
2. ignorance
3. ego

1 is irrefutable, 2 is dependant on a reasonable education and 3 is not something I have time or patience to stroke.

In short I have realised that it is not my place to argue with ignorant, egotistical sell-outs.

ah-blabla I am not suggesting you are 1,2 or 3 any more than you were accusing me of whatever it was you were trying to suggest.

1, doubtful... you criticised google also.
2, clearly you are a very smart guy, I would go as far as to say you know things.
3, if this effort is anything to go by, VERY SMALL! well done you!

ah-blabla and everyone else, like it or not, realise it or not

google is not your friend.

google is a 'for-profit' corporation, not a charity.

1'st shareholders............................

There is a charitable part of google on google.org... So: google does have an aspect of charity, albeit limited. It is true though that you could interpret this as a simple image measure, so it doesn't make google that much better. I do however partially admire google as a company for the many innovations they bring: first they had a novel search engine algorithm (albeit not the first search engine overall), then there were things such as Google Maps, Google Earth, Gmail, Android, now the Chrome browser, which all have various novelties in them. (However there are many things I am also critical of: e.g. storing of search results, their suing someone for certain modifications to an Android phone as well as partial locking down of Android, however nowhere near as bad as Apple did to the IPhone. The email I am less critical about, since there are so many companies offering free email, and the same is valid for all free mail services. Unless you pay you can't expect full control.)

 

[hbell.isnz]

Yeah, I like the Web version too. I just wish there was a desktop version.

I personally favour MS Outlook or Evolution by using Gmail with IMAP. When I'm not at home I use the Gmail webmail system, but I prefer using email clients they seem more flexible and easier to use than the online version, plus with IMAP if I read a message in Outlook then it appears as read in Gmail and vice versa so makes life easier. I am only a recent convert from POP to IMAP and think IMAP is much easier to use!