How do YOU feel about having kids?

Kids or no kids?

  • Kids

    Votes: 57 76.0%
  • No Kids

    Votes: 18 24.0%

  • Total voters
    75

Dazz

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Wow, lots of really good points for not having kids on this thread :biggrin:

I have the best of both worlds I guess, 2 kids who I adore and a seperation which means I don't have to look after them :lol: although I will admit that if I ever meet the right person then I will probably want more because its fantastic to watch them grow up and you get such a feeling of pride when they do something that you have taught them.
 

peejay

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Like you, I have 2 fantastic kids :nuts: and am separated :biggrin: but I do get custody of them alternate weekends :cool:

I am curious as to what the definition of a "better quality of life" is in your opinion, though, Antonio. If you mean that you will have more money in the bank, less responsibility, and more free time to do whatever you want, then yes, not having children does give you a better "quality of life".

The thing is, as you get older, you may well find that your definition of "quality of life" changes, and this is when a more nurturing side tends to develop. Okay, some people do opt never to have children, which is, of course, their choice, but most of them will, at some stage, get a pet of some description to act as a surrogate child - an object of shared affection that they can look after.

Antonio - this is going to come as a shock - but that lustful passion of youth (the "I want to do my other half in every way possible from now til the day I die") - that will fade away :eek4:. Sorry - that's life. Yep, we've all been through that stage (or the older members have, anyway) and have emerged the other side as people who are no longer ruled by the contents of their pants. Whether you do have children or not, believe me, it will happen
 

papadon

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I always wanted a family. Fortunately, I married a woman with 4 girls and we had another girl together. Sure, it cost some money (OK, a lot), but I don't begrudge a penny of it (although it would have helped if their biological father had paid more than a very small share of his child support).

Yes, some of the girls had their problems (drugs, alcohol, running away, etc.), but in the long run, they all turned out OK. Some folks just take longer to "grow up" than others. Now we have 7 grandchildren to enjoy, too. Are all of our kids and grandkids what we hoped? No way, but they each have a life of their own, and we're part of that. It's great to have one call us to get our input, whether they end up deciding as we would like them to or not.

We've had plenty of fun and enjoyment along the way, most of it made better by the fact that the kids were with us to help enjoy it. Now they have great memories and stories to tell their friends and kids and we all share those stories, good and bad (as a parent, some things the kids do are better left undiscovered until they're grown!).

At get-togethers, I'm just as likely to be playing games with whatever kids are there as I am to be chatting or whatever with the adults. Part of me is still a kid, and I don't want to ever lose that. Kids somehow sense that, and will come right to me for some reason. So I still get to have fun as a grown-up kid!

Kids Rock!
 

thebabyhater

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I am curious as to what the definition of a "better quality of life" is in your opinion, though, Antonio. If you mean that you will have more money in the bank, less responsibility, and more free time to do whatever you want, then yes, not having children does give you a better "quality of life".

The thing is, as you get older, you may well find that your definition of "quality of life" changes, and this is when a more nurturing side tends to develop. Okay, some people do opt never to have children, which is, of course, their choice

...

Antonio - this is going to come as a shock - but that lustful passion of youth (the "I want to do my other half in every way possible from now til the day I die") - that will fade away :eek4:. Sorry - that's life. Yep, we've all been through that stage (or the older members have, anyway) and have emerged the other side as people who are no longer ruled by the contents of their pants. Whether you do have children or not, believe me, it will happen

You nailed my definition of "quality of life," to the letter. However, from what I've noticed, many people who want children always take the "when you get older" attitude toward those who do not. Believe me, this is an aspect of myself that absolutely will not change - I have known this since I was six months old, and every day the feeling gets stronger. As far as being "ruled by the contents of [my] pants," I am not just referring to physical sexual pleasure; that by itself is about as exciting as fixing a fence. It's the act of being able to openly express your love for somebody that truly has meaning, and that ability is not present among most couples with children. Of course many older forum members lose that part of themselves - numerous studies show that after having children, the romance factor boils down to almost zero with most couples, which consequently leads to a diminishing sex drive (aside from the natural physiological aspect of it).

I want more than just sex - I'm talking about romance itself. I want to love another person until the end of my days as a person, and not as a means to an end of spreading my DNA into the world. Look it up: elderly childfree couples often lead very fufilling sex and romance lives, much more so than those with children. That aspect of their relationship never hit the rut caused by having children, and instead of losing passion for each other, it never stopped. The childfree couples are the ones who are still loving each other, still enjoying their sex lives, and still having fun with each other even into old age. Those who have children usually end up in a situation exactly like what you've described as the norm.

Now, I realize everybody is different, and I respect your opinion, but that doesn't mean I will somehow change my whole attitude on life once I get older. I know what is important to me - it defines me as a person. Trust me, there's a better chance of every person on this forum simultaneously winning the lottery and immediately getting hit by a falling satellite than me ever having kids.

I don't really want this topic to take a nasty turn, since we're skirting the borders of the ad hominem, so we'll leave it at that.
 
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rlodge

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Would you provide some links to all of these statistics and polls and studies that you use to defend your stance?

Also, I don't begrudge you for not wanting children. That is a major life decision on whether or not to have them.

But I do have to say that at six months old you were probably not even aware of a bathroom (hence the diapers) let alone your decision to have children.
 

thebabyhater

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There's a home movie of me beating the original "Super Mario Brothers" at that age. In pants. I'm pretty sure I knew what a bathroom was. :)

I'll grab some of those studies as soon as I can... I need to be on a different computer (intranet) to access PsychInfo, otherwise I'd do it now.

EDIT: Here's a very basic list for now. Note that I also included some popular press articles in case one doesn't have access to the full studies. There's one very specific study I'd like to cite as well, but sadly it's in an extremely obscure book which I'll have to borrow from a friend. Anyway, check these out for now for anybody who's interested.

"Having Kids Makes You Happy," by Lorraine Ali - http://www.newsweek.com/id/143792/page/1 - public press article which cites at least six very relevant studies. Start here.

"Childless or childfree? A descriptive study of sterilization, infecundity and intentional childlessness," by Noack T and Ostby L.

"Choosing Childlessness: Weber's Typology of Action and Motives of the Voluntarily Childless," by Kristin Park.

"Stuck on the 'mummy track' - why having a baby means lower pay and prospects" by Patrick Barkham.

...as well as some quotations:

Clinical psychologist Dr. Rick Hanson: "No doubt about it, marital squabbles and even ugly fights usually increase after children come along. The causes are painfully familiar to us all: sleep deprivation, little time for oneself, feeling let down, vicious cycles of finger-pointing, the in-laws, etc. etc. We certainly fought more frequently and intensely after having kids than ever before." -"5 Keys to Settling Marital Conflict"

Dr. Margaret Paul: "A major challenge for parents, especially new parents, is finding the time to be together in ways that foster romance in their relationship." -"Sustaining Romance after Becoming Parents"
 
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pietimer

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Personally, I think that I'm pretty awesome. Therefore, I want to create more of me.
 

fempower

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Bringing more kids into a world full of orphans and abused children who needs loving care? No thank you. Adopting a la Angie and Brad? Perhaps. But I can barely take care of myself and don't even think I can handle a pet right now.
 

Dazz

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Personally, I think that I'm pretty awesome. Therefore, I want to create more of me.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

That's a good way of looking at it, think I'll have a couple more so I can spread my own personal brand of awesomeness hahaha
 

wolfy67

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I checked no on the poll but I'm actually on the fence with this issue. I don't have any kids right now but I could see myself raising a child.

I enjoy the freedom of having just my partner and I at the house. It's great to be able to spend time together without worrying about the kids' safety, and have they eaten their vegetables, and are they doing well in school, and (God forbid) when they are ready to start dating.

On the other hand I do feel the need for "kid time" now and then. I usually babysit my nieces and nephew one weekend a month. It gives their parents some alone time as well as keeps me happy. I like watching them play and interact. Each one has his or her own personality and opinions. They are a total trip when they're trying to solve a puzzle or figure out a riddle. And nothing tops the feeling of seeing their little eyes look up as they say "I love you!" and give me a great big hug. Both of my sisters and my dad claim I'd be a great parent but I don't know.

Maybe one day I'll have kids. But for now I'm happy just they way I am.
 

rlodge

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Clinical psychologist Dr. Rick Hanson: "No doubt about it, marital squabbles and even ugly fights usually increase after children come along. The causes are painfully familiar to us all: sleep deprivation, little time for oneself, feeling let down, vicious cycles of finger-pointing, the in-laws, etc. etc. We certainly fought more frequently and intensely after having kids than ever before." -"5 Keys to Settling Marital Conflict"


"ugly fights usually increase" - Now there's a quantifiable, scientific answer. Kinda like a "Definite maybe". I believe they "usually" increase with immature parents. Parents who were not ready or responsible enough to have kids in the first place. If I remember correctly, one of the number one causes of arguments in a marriage is financial matters.

- sleep deprivation? Most of the younger generation I see today would rather be up until 2:00 am - 4:00 am anyway. All of a sudden it's bad if the cause is a child instead of partying? I lived with more sleep deprivation in the military than my wife and I did raising our children.

- little time for oneself? I would say that statement depends on the parents and whether they are both mature enough to raise the child. My wife and I did not suffer this problem. We also did not suffer from the "trapped at home" syndrome either. You're generally more limited on what you can do, where you can go and for how long you can be gone due to having pets more than children.

- feeling let down? Let down about what? Your life? Your child? That one needs a lot more explanation.

- vicious cycles of fingerpointing? From whom? The kids? The parents? Another one that needs explanation.

- the in-laws? Don't you get those once you are married? What do kids have to do with that? You can be childless and still have problems with in-laws.

Dr. Margaret Paul: "A major challenge for parents, especially new parents, is finding the time to be together in ways that foster romance in their relationship." -"Sustaining Romance after Becoming Parents"

Yes, it's a challenge. It's not impossible. Life in general is a challenge. With the current state of the economy, it can be said that both partners having to work full time to make ends meet can be a challenge to find time to be together in ways that foster romance.

As I stated earlier, not having children is as big of a decision as deciding to have children. I hold it against no one who decides they are not ready to have children. I do find it hard to fathom where the idea of having children means that your life is effectively over, though.

I have read the Newsweek article and what I gathered from their studies was that, yes, having a child today will make you unhappy. The reason behind it isn't the child so much as the changes in society / the economy and, as I stated above, parents and couples alike are having to become two income families to make ends meet. This I did not have to deal with because my wife and I budgeted our money and lived within our means so only I had to work. I don't see this so much as a problem as it is a choice. People take part time jobs or become stay at home parents so they can spend more time with their children. The parents decided this, the children didn't cause this. It's like I always told my kids. For every decision you make in life there is a consequence. The consequence may be good or bad but there will be a consequence.

As for the "Stuck on the mummy track" article, they do say that women who have children get paid less even after the children grow up and move out. If you happened to read the related articles (links on the right side of the story) these articles were published in Britain. The related articles summarized how "discrimination in the workplace" is a problem but they relate it to inadequacies in pay scales between men and women, not specifically because women had children. It was more because employers were paying men more than women across the board.
 
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thebabyhater

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"ugly fights usually increase" - Now there's a quantifiable, scientific answer. Kinda like a "Definite maybe". I believe they "usually" increase with immature parents. Parents who were not ready or responsible enough to have kids in the first place. If I remember correctly, one of the number one causes of arguments in a marriage is financial matters.

Actually, a scientific answer is never absolute. Nothing can be proven, only shown. Since every person, and thus every couple, is different, expecting the exact same results would be asinine. Statistical trends are all one can expect from science. As far as "maturity" goes, the literature indicates that it really does not play into the issue here, regardless of your opinion.

sleep deprivation? Most of the younger generation I see today would rather be up until 2:00 am - 4:00 am anyway. All of a sudden it's bad if the cause is a child instead of partying? I lived with more sleep deprivation in the military than my wife and I did raising our children.

You're using anecdotal evidence - just because you believe the "younger generation" is all the same, e.g. staying up all night partying, doesn't mean it's universally true.


little time for oneself? I would say that statement depends on the parents and whether they are both mature enough to raise the child. My wife and I did not suffer this problem. We also did not suffer from the "trapped at home" syndrome either. You're generally more limited on what you can do, where you can go and for how long you can be gone due to having pets more than children.

Again, anecdotal, but furthermore you bring "maturity" into account. If one would rather have more free time than a child, the mature thing to do would be not to have a child. As far as pets being more limiting than children, this is a highly subjective statement; it all depends on what kind of pet you are referring to. I would argue that an adult housedog is much less limiting than a constantly screaming, pooping x-month old baby.

Yes, it's a challenge. It's not impossible. Life in general is a challenge. With the current state of the economy, it can be said that both partners having to work full time to make ends meet can be a challenge to find time to be together in ways that foster romance.

I agree with you there, although I think you're supporting my point. As you said earlier, money is a huge source of arguments. However, as studies have shown, parents end up spending approximately $117,000-250,000 per child from birth until age seventeen, not including any college fees. Not having children allows a couple to accumulate more money than a couple working the same jobs in the same economic situation, and thus gives more time for romance.

...my wife and I budgeted our money and lived within our means so only I had to work.

As I've said, I mean no disrespect toward those who want children. However, my own personal priorities (and my own definition of personal happiness) is quite the opposite from "[living] within [my] means." I want to take that extra $200,000 and buy a Ferrari.

Finally, I realize the "Stuck on the Mummy Track" article was written in Britain. As I'm sure you're aware, x10 has members from all different nations and walks of life - being childfree in Britain also deals with the added detail of discrimination in the workplace. Again, though, it all boils down to cold, hard statistics: childfree British women make more money than British mothers.

That being said, I truly appreciate you taking the time to read the articles. I should have plenty more in the near future, but if you don't mind, maybe you could post some research from your side of the fence to even it out? I'd like to read some of the "benefits" of having children so I can strengthen my own position. ;)
 

rlodge

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Well, I'll end my part in this by telling you that "Yes I will use annecdotal reference."

You are taking the word of complete strangers that what they say is fact and dismissing the fact that someone has had very different, real-life experiences as conjecture. Almost like the guys that got us into Iraq spouting that it was a fact that Iraq had WMD.

You infer above that maturity only applies as long as it's a mature decision to not have children. If you decide to have children, maturity doesn't apply and therefore, having problems while being a parent is solely the child's fault. Nowhere did I say that it was immature to not have children. Maturity level does play a big part in explaining the problems listed. Whether you're mature enough to make the decision to have or not have children and, if you decide to have them, mature enough to live with that decision and not use the child as a scape-goat.

As for the "Stuck on the Mummy Track" article, I do know that there are numerous countries represented here at X10. I used that sentence to preface the fact that Britain, according to the related articles I read, has an overall problem with the pay differences between men and women and they are working on legislation to fix it. You chose one article out of many about the pay problem to use as fact that children are the cause of lower wages when, if you read the other articles, that is not the entire case.

I have seen through this that you tend to "pick and choose" your facts and dismiss any type of real life experience as "annecdotal". I have only attempted to show you that there can be more causes to the problems you list as being "child-related" and you have dismissed every alternative stating that it's not part of your research.
 

thebabyhater

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Rlodge, you're welcome to post relevant links to materials supporting your own personal opinion.

As usual, I appreciate the input for everybody contributing to this topic. I'd like to eventually reprint some of it for a website article (you would all be anonymous, of course) if nobody raises any objections. I'm very impressed with the varying degrees of opinions on the topic.

That being said, keep the opinions coming, guys. Thanks! ;)
 

dwd2000

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I'm a little older than most of you, so I can see both sides. (mainly because I was 37 when my twins were born)

Yes, you have a lot more freedom without, but there's a sense of pride, joy, or whatever you want to call it after the child/children are born. I was scared crapless while my wife was pregnant. Even the next couple years weren't all that great, until they learn to communicate with some sort of intellect. After that, it's great. I can't imagine my life without them.

My advice:
  • Don't be a kid with kids. Do some growing up of your own first.
  • Learn how to take a toilet and stuff apart, remove the toys and junk, and put it back together properly. (you'll understand later)
  • Be honest with them. When they find out you weren't, you usually lose their trust. If they catch you in a lie, explain why. Usually telling them they were too young to understand usually works, especially when they really are too young.
  • As they grow older, they should look at you as their best friend, not just a parent. This should help when they get into their teens and beyond.
  • Never underestimate them.
  • Encourage, but don't force things, like sports, music, or whatever.
  • Let them make mistakes. That's usually the only way they (we) learn. How many times have our parents told us not to do things, but we do anyway, just to realize that our parents were right to begin with? Sure, let them know what you think, but don't get angry or do something to scare them off. As they learn how right you were, their trust will allow them to act on your advice.

I think I got carried away.

It's easy to say that you'll never have or want kids, but you'll never know what life is really about until you have them.
Without them, you're on a one way street, leading to a dead end. You'll never realize the roads that open up until you have them.
Edit:
Rlodge, you're welcome to post relevant links to materials supporting your own personal opinion.

As usual, I appreciate the input for everybody contributing to this topic. I'd like to eventually reprint some of it for a website article (you would all be anonymous, of course) if nobody raises any objections. I'm very impressed with the varying degrees of opinions on the topic.

That being said, keep the opinions coming, guys. Thanks! ;)

I don't mind you reprinting my opinions, but:
Let me know where;
and I don't want to be anonymous.

If your readers want more opinions or whatever from me, then you can give them a link to my Friends-Alumni site, if they want it.

Maybe there's more people who posted here that feel the same way. Maybe not. Being a little older than most (47), I may have a little more experience and could offer advice.
Feel free to contact me.
 
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Twinkie

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I am Wayyyyyyy to young to be thinking about these things, but I would want to have kids when I am good and ready. Having kids does restrict your life, but in the same way, it is an extension of your life. When we all become old farts, we live through the success of our children. It is like an investment. Also, think about what would happen if your parents thought the same as thebabyhater, creepy....... (no offense)
 

thebabyhater

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Also, think about what would happen if your parents thought the same as thebabyhater, creepy....... (no offense)

Well, if they really thought like me, you sure wouldn't be reading this topic, now would'ya? :biggrin:

That being said, I'll definitely let you know if I decide to quote you, dwd2000 (the site is ihatebabies.net, fyi). The same goes for any of you. Proper credit is always due for good discussions.

Totally random, but a funny thing happened today that I just had to add here. I was shopping at the grocery store, when a girl my age (but many pounds heavier... totally unrelated, I know, but description is a good thing) walks by holding her baby. She turns to her empty-faced male, says "Aren't you glad we had a baby?", and is immediately puked on by her kid. She swears at the kid for about five minutes, and then hands him off to her hubby as she storms off.

Made my day. :D
 
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abcisaac

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My whole website is all about my kids. They are really enriching my life. I have many more opportunities to practice virtues (such as patience, impartiality, etc) than before I had children. Also, I think having and raising children is the most powerful way to impact future generations because the parent(s) are the most significant source of influence in a child's life. What I mean is, yes you can do something great in the life of another child, being a teacher, mentor, friend, etc, but you can do so much more by being a parent.

It is sad to see so many people publicly demonstrating their ineptitude at parenting, but no human parent is perfect. Swearing at children is, without question, terribly destructive and shameful and should have no place in any child's life. But children can sometimes bring out the worst in a person, too. Sometimes a person's weaknesses are never seen until a child reveals them.
 
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Twinkie

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Well, if they really thought like me, you sure wouldn't be reading this topic, now would'ya? :biggrin:

That being said, I'll definitely let you know if I decide to quote you, dwd2000 (the site is ihatebabies.net, fyi). The same goes for any of you. Proper credit is always due for good discussions.

Totally random, but a funny thing happened today that I just had to add here. I was shopping at the grocery store, when a girl my age (but many pounds heavier... totally unrelated, I know, but description is a good thing) walks by holding her baby. She turns to her empty-faced male, says "Aren't you glad we had a baby?", and is immediately puked on by her kid. She swears at the kid for about five minutes, and then hands him off to her hubby as she storms off.

Made my day. :D
That true. Great advertisement for your site... I visited your web site and was displeased with the massive bias. I understand you feel that TV is biased too, but biasing your site (in retaliation?) just makes your site unreliable. Would have liked it better if there was a forum with portions of your site explaining both sides. Not a site for you to flame. You cannot truly know the benefits of children until you have them, and your limited experiences have clearly been bad. But those who had them have felt the enlightenment of their lives and can actually speak with the knowledge of both sides. I found your web site completely based on flaming and YOUR opinion. I'm not about to argue about the topic or your ethics, I am just suggesting a big transformation of your site. I support the idea of a forum. Been there, hated it, don't recommend it.

I would like to ask you if you believe in any benefits of having children or do you believe children are nothing but problems?
(Really loved the page about children being dumber than furniture based completely on a bad movie experience, they were 3! How can you justify your opinion when you acted the same at that age!)

PS: Keep in mind I am one of them, as are the majority of X10 found in polls (or teens)...

~Twinkie
 
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