Show your guns!

Sharky

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I think what it comes down to is that no matter what is said, there's still an element of 'coolness' about guns. After talking to other members on the IRC, I'm not alone in this.

What I do know is, no matter what is said here, I'm still going down the range on Thursday, and will still enjoy it, moreso if I hit the centre of the target every time! :lol:
 

David

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I'm quite happy with my vehicle, thanks, but I don't feel the need to use it, or my guns/PC/graphics card etc as a status symbol on x10.

I don't disagree with a lot of what has been said on this thread. Switzerland is a good example of how a society can live with guns reasonably responsibly (everyone trained to use them for national defence, & despite the large numbers owned, there is very little gun crime).

However, their circumstances are quite different from countries such as the U.S. - who I wouldn't exactly hold up as shining examples of a society benefiting from guns.

The UK has had very little problem with guns in the past & as a result even the police didn't need to be armed. Unfortunately that is now changing as the US influence finds its way in, & drug problems & illegal guns are on the increase.

For those that have argued here that they need guns at home for "self defence against the criminals" - they would have liked the arms race peaking in the 1980's.....known as Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). The "we need more nuclear weapons than the other side" excuse escalated us to the point of near-annihilation.

You cannot even pretend that the US has influenced drug use in the UK and Europe, because as I recall, it was Great Britain supplying Opium to China, deliberately trying to get as many people hooked as they could. As a matter of fact, European culture has influenced the Drug craze here in America.
 

Sharky

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Hey, 93% of the worlds supply of Opium comes from Afghanistan!
 

zen-r

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You cannot even pretend that the US has influenced drug use in the UK and Europe, because as I recall, it was Great Britain supplying Opium to China, deliberately trying to get as many people hooked as they could. As a matter of fact, European culture has influenced the Drug craze here in America.

WTF!

We're talking about what's going on now, not ancient history. If you go down that path, you could blame everything on Africa, from where everyone is said to have descended.

If you think US culture hasn't influenced most other countries throughout the world in recent times, you are sadly deluded.

Come on, get a grip.

I think what it comes down to is that no matter what is said, there's still an element of 'coolness' about guns. After talking to other members on the IRC, I'm not alone in this.

What I do know is, no matter what is said here, I'm still going down the range on Thursday, and will still enjoy it, moreso if I hit the centre of the target every time! :lol:

Hmm....it depends what you mean by "cool". Ownership of guns for oneself may be cool, because it gives one power over others. But other people owning them isn't so cool for oneself.

Talking to others on IRC only gives you a representation from the mainly spotty male teenager section of society. I think you'll find that the larger proportion of the rest of society may have some other opinions. There is a slight difference between the fictional world inside shootem-up games, & the harsh reality of guns & killing people in the real world.
 

Any_Key

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Again, live somewhere where guns are accepted as part of society and you'll see things differently.
This is starting to get off topic and a bit confrontational, it may be time to move it to Crossfire.

I'm not even going to attempt to touch a lot of things said here in the past day, not in this section anyway. To each his own.
 

zen-r

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There's nothing wrong with a bit of debate - it keeps the grey matter ticking over, & we all have the chance to alter or develop our opinions.

People are free to re-focus the topic.....but no-one else seems to have any photos to post!

I'll step back from the debate now (unless someone else says something particularly confrontational ;) )
 
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farscapeone

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One way or another this thread could become interesting ;)
 

Twinkie

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I have a decent caliber German automatic handgun, don't know specifics though. I agree guns are bad, and my even encourage violence. But as they say:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
 

David

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WTF!

We're talking about what's going on now, not ancient history. If you go down that path, you could blame everything on Africa, from where everyone is said to have descended.

If you think US culture hasn't influenced most other countries throughout the world in recent times, you are sadly deluded.

Come on, get a grip.

RAWR! (Now, do some research. ;) )


Back on topic a little bit, the old cliche "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is about as true as it gets.

We as human beings are sentient creatures, capable of making rational, concise decisions about our actions, further, we have the capability to rationalize the consequences. So, if that's the case, and it is in 99.09% of the world's population (Taking into account for those with mental instability, or those with disorders affecting sentient, rational thought and emotion.), then one might be inclined to ask the inevitable question: "Then why do people kill people?"

My AP Contemporary World teacher, Bill Soff (A truly sensational man to debate with, as well as carry on any intellectual conversation with.), put a question to the class "What is or was the cause of every conflict, minor and major; past, present, and future, that has or ever will take place?" The answer was obvious to some, less obvious to others, and when he announced the "right" answer, quoted because on a technical basis it is truly a hyposthesis, there came murmers from without the room, nothing major, more like murmers of "D'oh!" The answer, is "money and property."

A fewdecided to play devils advocate, and post a rebuttal, as was customary in this class. It was interesting that everyone had a new circumstance, and another would recite a proof in favour of the Theory. The consensus became that the theory, is fact, and was so accepted and adopted within the classroom.

So, keeping all that in mind, I answer the previous question presented: "Then why do people kill people?" The answer can be traced back to money. Now, one must ask himself "Do guns truly attribute to the problem?" The answer, is no. It may simplify and hasten the end result, but guns themselves are not the cause of hate and murder.

One could argue that if guns were to be outlawed, and every single one destroyed, and for the sake of argument no single person or entity possesses a gun under any circumstance, that the rate of crime and the number of murders every year would decline to nearly nothing. The reality is that no, it would not for any extended period of time become non-existent, or even get better.

Guns only simplify the act, but ther was just as much crime and murder before guns, as there is after the emergence of guns. Kings and queens have been usurped by cords of silk in their sleep, poisoned by their morning tea. Children have been drowned by their mothers. Men and women burned alive. And yet we are worried about guns. Why? Because we need a scapegoat, a place to place the blame for the hatred in the world, a place to place the blame for the failures we are for allowing our world to become this corrupted, abysmal place that it is.

Sure, you'll sit there and blame it on your ancestors, or the people who came before you. You'll brush it off as not your problem, say that it's our instinct. But it is nurture, not nature. It is how and what we teach our children, what they see, and ultimately, we are what they become. They learn their language from us, they learn to walk by watching others do it, children embody us and our actions, they are at the most crucial point in their lives for learning.

It's at this poin that they learn how to react to certain situations. Childrens who witness violence, live in a violent household, or are themselves victems of violence, then they themselves are at a greater chance of adopting a violent behaviour.

So no, guns are not killing people, society and people are killing people. Sure you can post a thousand rebuttals, and I can post a thousand corralaries. But it will end with the same result.

-David
 

Sharky

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Not bad for a second post...

[...]Hmm....it depends what you mean by "cool". Ownership of guns for oneself may be cool, because it gives one power over others. But other people owning them isn't so cool for oneself.

Talking to others on IRC only gives you a representation from the mainly spotty male teenager section of society. I think you'll find that the larger proportion of the rest of society may have some other opinions. There is a slight difference between the fictional world inside shootem-up games, & the harsh reality of guns & killing people in the real world.

Other people owning them is ok providing they're relatively sane, like Russ. Only basing this on what background information I've learned over the time I've known him, he seems a fairly normal kind of guy, and not some gun-toting gang member or mentally unstable psychopath.

Also, the 'mainly spotty male teenager' leading demographic is irrelevant. Think of it this way: statistically, six out of seven dwarfs aren't Happy. Yes, that is relevant. Think about it.

I'm of the view that, although people are entitled to their own opinions, those who just outright say 'guns are bad' are being slightly narrow minded. There are many legitimate uses for guns that do not involve killing people. Based on the views above, I'm taking the assumption that these same people would be happy for guns to be banned. Tell me, would these same people ban beer? It's a fact published by The Office for National Statistics that the alcohol related death rate in the UK doubled from 4,144 deaths to 8,386 deaths from 1991 to 2005 [1]. What about computers and the internet? How often do you visit your local library if you need to do research now that you have the internet in your own home? Not only that, but what do you think is the primary mode for distributing pornography (incl child pornography) and for illegally distributing music/games/videos?

A more recently publicised example is those who wish to destroy the stockpiles of nuclear ("nucular") warheads, submarines, etc. [2]. Of course, you'll get those saying that the threat of a cataclysmic nuclear holocaust would be eliminated if we did this. Think about this: now, not only are these nuke's acting to avert conflict (who's going to want to start against a country with such a large stockpile?) but also, if another nation does decide to take its chances, there's a higher probability of us winning, due to having more nuclear weapons than the other country. The problems as I see it are:
- destroying the nuclear stockpiles means that if a person was to get hold of a nuclear weapon, they could single handedly destroy the world -- there would be no deterrant.
- how are you going to ensure once you have disarmed, that other countries will follow suit? How will you respond if another nation declares war?

This example directly applies to guns. If you make guns illegal, only criminals will own guns (excluding those who become criminals just because they own guns, I'm referring to those who would be criminals if guns were legal). You would remove the one most effective form of self-defence against a gun-wielding criminal. Referring to a (fairly) recent news case [3], if someone breaks in to your home, should you not defend it and your family using any force necessary with whatever means are available? If someone (ie, the burglar) decides to break the law, why should he be offered the same legal protection and have any rights? Nobody is forcing the criminal to break in to your house, it is through choice. The very same choice that should make them legally subject to the effects of your self-defence. Whilst criminals have guns, the best method of self-defence is still going to be a gun.


So, would you still ban these things? Can you still say 'guns are bad'?


DISCLAIMER:
Not directing this at anyone in particular, just trying to stir up an interesting discussion. Although if anyone wants to take it personally, I'm open for debate, and am sure I'm not the only one.



[1] Alcohol Abuse - The Facts!, Drug-Aware.com, http://www.drug-aware.com/alcohol-abuse-facts-statistics.htm
[2] Can Obama Persuade World on Nuclear Arms?, Reuters, http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE5364VH20090407?sp=true
[3] Shot burglar case sparks debate, BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/derbyshire/3954033.stm
 

zen-r

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Oh...... I'm itching to reply to some of the lengthy twaddle that's getting posted here.

But I'd decided earlier that I wouldn't, so I won't.

Doh!..... too late :pat:
 

Russ

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First off, let me start by saying.. Any_Key, Awesome dude. Good to see someone else from Florida here defending gun rights. I am in Jacksonville. We have some good laws over guns. Secondly, here is what I have to say to the bickering going on, I look at guns in 2 ways, One as protection, and two as a hobby. If I am out with my family and someone tries to car-jack me,you better believe I am going to kill the person, Anyone who says they wouldn't should re-consider life, You're the person who would tell the courts to let someone off who killed your whole family. Stand up for yourself. I am saying too, guns are bad in the wrong hands. I know, I see it all the time in my line of work. As for the hobby part of it, My AR15, Do you really see me using that gun in a fight, or for hunting? I have other guns for hunting, and I hate to say it, It's hard to conceal an AR15, i'd use my pistol for that. ;) I have it for the fun of it, it's a fun gun to shoot, I go to competitions and all. I've had a few of them now. I enjoy building them, and modifying them. But, again, for those bashing guns I hope you never own one, and never see a need in life to have one, meaning I hope you NEVER find your self in that life or death situation, where you suddenly rethink your feelings on guns, but it's too late. In today's' society, Every LAW ABIDING citizen should be entitled to their second amendment rights and also USE their second amendment rights.
 

zen-r

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Russ......A well balanced viewpoint (& to the point, unlike others which seemed to be going off at long tangents about people obviously being the problem, not inanimate objects, or the bizarre "merits" of nuclear warfare!) But that said, I feel your view is still unfortunately from the perspective of someone who feels threatened by others with guns.

In places like the UK where not many guns are allowed, the threat of others with guns is therefore barely there in the first place, so most people don't have to feel the need to own them, use them, carry them around with them at all times etc.

The reference I made earlier to the arms race, peaking in the 1980's, was simply an attempt to highlight the point that the more you arm, the more the other side arms themselves also. Criminals robbing a shop or breaking into a house in areas such as yours where families own guns, are more likely to go in heavily armed. Criminals here rarely feel the need to go armed with guns (or have even access to them). Confrontations with criminals where you live are just as likely as here (guns there don't put them off) & will more likely end in serious injury or death (both to the criminal & the victim). Confrontations here, both parties being without guns, are usually trivial in comparison. Having a gun on you often also increases the risk of it being used against you.

I'd rather give up my right to own guns, where their main purpose is defending myself or having "some fun doing target practice", in order to live in a society where I don't have to feel threatened all the time by others with guns. :happysad:


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Any_Key

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Thanks Russ. I'm from Miami myself, and to paraphrase Dave Berry: We have more guns than the North Korean army and they tend to be of higher caliber. =D

I would love to own an AR, and was actually offered an AK47 (pre-ban with all papers. It was run through ATF and checked out.) before deciding that other than wasting a lot of money on ammo I had no use for such a thing.

The reason I suggested moving the topic, or making a new one in the appropriate section was to encourage debate in it's proper place while leaving this topic true to it's intention.

Exembar, while I don't agree with your teacher's conclusion I do like his methods. It is becoming less common to find teachers who encourage individual thought over remembering facts. I hope that if you choose to continue your education you do so at a University where you can find other such instructors. Just remember, you'll call them "professor" for a reason.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is why I try not to flat out tell people that they are wrong in situations where fact is not being argued. If you do have an opinion, and must express it, please make sure it is an Informed Opinion.

I'd rather give up my right...
There is something you will never hear me say. I disagree with many things that people do, but do not agree with taking their right to do them. The only rights I believe you don't have are those that require you to take the rights of another; murder, rape, theft, things of that nature.
If you want to buy a pound of Peruvian Cocaine and snort it in a single night, I think you should have that right. It will kill you, but you should have the right to mess up your life in whatever way you want, provided you do not harm others. But this is a topic for another debate.

I'll be at the range this weekend, provided no clients call and mess up my plans. I'll take some pictures then.
 

Twinkie

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This really belongs in crossfire, what about the guns you own?
 
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