Time for a Real Debate

[CWeb Creative]

Who caused the U.S. recession. Who is most at fault? Dont just say what they did wrong but also what they should have done to prevent it.

 

[phazzedout]

The banks.

I know, that one liners are not allowed but here let me explain what I have seen, heard, read, studied. The banks pre-gobal recession, would give loans to people who couldn't afford to take out loans of said amount. This of course causes trouble, if no one is paying back, then banks start to lose money. Then here come two presidents, that buy these banks and the people (CEO's VP's etc.) still get paid their regular salary. Modern Capitalism = fail. I am leaning more to a sort of socialism, not too extreme, not too much control.

 

[AngusThermopyle]

The US economy was built on paper.
Credit card debt fueled consumer spending.
Mortage debt fueled the housing bubble.
Government debt fueled foreign wars and wasteful domestic programs and tax cuts.
Corporate debt fueled ill advised takeovers and excessive CEO compensation and dividends
Financial debt fueled hedge funds and others hungry for new investment ideas, including packaged questionable mortages and credit default swaps.

To recall Mr Gekko, everybody felt that "Greed is good".

Suddenly someone realized there wasn't enough real money floating around. The Emperor had no clothes.

 

[phazzedout]

The US economy was built on paper.
Credit card debt fueled consumer spending.
Mortage debt fueled the housing bubble.
Government debt fueled foreign wars and wasteful domestic programs and tax cuts.
Corporate debt fueled ill advised takeovers and excessive CEO compensation and dividends
Financial debt fueled hedge funds and others hungry for new investment ideas, including packaged questionable mortages and credit default swaps.

Pretty much what he said. Today's capitalism is not the same as it was before, much more greed and corruption going on at the expense of us. We bailed those big companies from bankruptcy. I say we should of let them fall flat on their asses so we could start all over and create a newer type of economy.

 

[joejv4]

I think that the sub-prime lending practices at the banks were the "setup" for the global recession. The switch that actually started the decline, IMHO, was the speculators investing in the oil market. When gasoline prices were driven up into the $5/gallon range by actions of speculators, people were suddenly in a position where it cost more than twice as much to just drive to work every day. This caused problems paying debts that many were barely able to pay before the gas price jumped. From there it was a domino effect. The banks started to hurt as consumers paid later and later or not at all. The rest is history

 

[xav0989]

This whole thing started after september 11th, 2001. To prove that americans are not touched by the talibans, president Bush encouraged people to be more capitalistic, i.e. spend more, buy more, etc. This led to a situation were there was a housing bubble (houses worth more then they really do), banks were giving loans to everyone, at subprime rates or interest only loans, and were exchanging papers that essentially consisted on bets whether people were going to pay back there loan or not. The housing bubble burst and everything went downhill from there.

 

[wongers]

why can people not see that you cant blame stuff like this on the banks? its like yeah sure they offered out preapproved credit cards out to every other chump, and thats not just in america, thats most of europe as well.

but when you look at the way the economy rises and falls with interest rates, it has a similar pattern that means it goes through a routine over the spread of 10/11 years with a wave shaped graph of interest rates etc.

when it comes down to it, i dont think this is something you can blame on the government or greedy banks, this is YOUR fault, (your being the individual consumer). you cant blame anyone but yourself at this stage.

over spending, unnecessary spending, the amount of people that no longer save up for mid-range purposes and just throw it on a credit card these days is ridiculous.

how did people not see this coming when the amount of companies that do debt consolidation began to increase and there were adverts all over the tv for the them. that should of been some what of an eye opener for the majority of people.

but no, you idiots just kept on spending (you being people with 6 credit cards each). i even know people like that and they say, oh well , i might as well spend lots now cause i only get to live once, well thats fair enough in one respect but look where it gets us?

i just wish people would stop shifting the blame, accept that its our own faults and deal with it. find a way to move on instead of trying to place blame all the time >_<

 

[ownreflection]

All I know is that now because of the economy being so bad, it's extremely hard to find a job anywhere. It's not just people with families that need jobs, it's also people that want to get ahead in life, like go to college, etc. I'm a senior in high school, I'm turning 18 in a few weeks and I've been looking for a job since I turned 16 and I have no idea how I'm gonna pay for college besides using financial aid and scholarships. Have a good day everyone =]

 

[CWeb Creative]

In reality it was the republican attitude of "free markets" that ruined us all. All they wanted to do was deregulate. Well look where that got us. Its sad but true that you can't trust u.s. buisness to do the right thing anymore. If the goverment isn't looking over their shoulder they will do anything they can to make a quck buck. However it isnt all the republicans fault. The blame ultimetly falls to the big CEO's of the corporations for running their companys into the ground and geting out right before they hit the ground. Im not talking the average business im talking about the big banks and other financial companys. In no way should a bank ever get "too big to fail" thats just like beting it all on a one in a million chance at victory or you loose it all. An all or nothing bet is a fools bet.

 

[earthinc]

I would say the biggest money-problem causers would be Bernie Madoff and George W. But what goes up must come down. I suggest the documentary "Collapse"

 

[CWeb Creative]

No offence but really Bernie Madoff caused the recession? No he didn't. The second part is right though Bush caused a good deal of our problems. He tried to go into a war that his dad didnt because he tought he was soo much smarter. Well he wasnt. He also did many stupid things that should never have gotten passed.

 

[fractalfeline]

And here I had thought the current situation mirrors similar situations in history, and that the current recession reflects certain cultural and societal problems than never do quite get solved. Things like short-sightedness, self-interest at the expense of the greater good, social Darwinism (still very prevalent in today's society), "live for the present" at the expense of "prepared for the future", bribery and corruption of governmental representatives, Money at the expense of Morality, the willingness to step on people to get a little higher, that sort of thing. :dunno:

 

[phazzedout]

Spending a lot of our money on the military doesn't really help either. What is so good about having a great military if all you have to do is aim a nuke to a country to keep them away. I would much rather spend money on schools so my nations could be regarded as a nation of intellectuals. Then eventually surpass everyone and create the super soldier serum, send the neanderthals into battle pumped with super steroids.

 

[CWeb Creative]

Spending a lot of our money on the military doesn't really help either. What is so good about having a great military if all you have to do is aim a nuke to a country to keep them away. I would much rather spend money on schools so my nations could be regarded as a nation of intellectuals. Then eventually surpass everyone and create the super soldier serum, send the neanderthals into battle pumped with super steroids.

You are almost completely right. We are spending too much money on the military. We should onlly spend enough to stay ahead of our big threats and get out of the middleeast. We should put more money into things like schools, hitech industry and NASA. People always go why are we spending billions of dollars on Nasa welll heres the answer. We aren't always going to have the earth, we have developed over 100 new technologies from the space program, and it is our future.

 

[dj0wns]

Here is my analysis:
Banks give unfair loans
People agree to these loans without reading the contract
people can't pay back the loans
Banks suffer because they are out billions of dollars in unpayed loans
Government decides to use tax payer money to give the banks a loan further pushing our country in debt
Banks use that money to pay salaries
Public *****es that their money is used to pay others salaries

I feel that it is nearly everyones fault.
Rule 1 for public: ALWAYS read the fine print.
Rule 1 for banking: You are not going to make money if the people can't pay your loans back

 

[earthinc]

No offence but really Bernie Madoff caused the recession? No he didn't. The second part is right though Bush caused a good deal of our problems. He tried to go into a war that his dad didnt because he tought he was soo much smarter. Well he wasnt. He also did many stupid things that should never have gotten passed.

You don't think that $65 billion, stolen from our real estate and publicly traded stocks, etc, has anything to do with the collapsing market; and directly related to the recession? I understand that our deficit is in the trillions, but $65 billion is not couch-change.

 

[ddcddc]

Spending a lot of our money on the military doesn't really help either. What is so good about having a great military if all you have to do is aim a nuke to a country to keep them away. I would much rather spend money on schools so my nations could be regarded as a nation of intellectuals. Then eventually surpass everyone and create the super soldier serum, send the neanderthals into battle pumped with super steroids.

Very good point actually. It would be nice if we could focus more on improving our educational system. There is a little known part of the government which get VERY LITTLE money to develop. It's purpose is to create "Weapons that don't kill." Could you even imagine how much respect we would gain if after we went to war with another country...the majority of their troops went home unharmed? Just think of the trickle-down effects of this....it would definately rebuild our damaged reputation in many parts of the world.

Eventually the economic ties with those who we gain respect from will surpass the money we had to spend to win a war with very little or....possibly..no deaths. I truely believe that there are more people in the world who DON'T want to watch their sons and daughters...nephews, nieces, ect..ect.. die. I believe most people feel like pawns of their governments.

DNA created peacful life in the beginning...plants just swaying on the ocean floor...peacefully coesxiting...then it changed for some reason. Whichever god you believe in...or however you percieve it, added teeth and agression to the code of DNA. Ever since then we have been struggling to escape our animalistic tendencies. And economically based societies relfect the worst in human nature.

Greed is MOST definately a part of this. People have become VERY sophisticated in the way they choose to run society. Don't forget what Napolean said.....not sure if this is EXACTLY how he said it... "Religion is a great way to control the people." And one of the German Nazi's said.. "The more we do to you, the less we believe it's happening". In reference to Jewish people ofcourse.

Our individual ego and collective egos have led us down a path of brutality long enough. If we are ever to evolve to the point we can do what DNA/GOD/whatever or whoever, designed us to do...
that is to escape the planet just like we have tried to escape the forests and jungles. We are trying to find ways to continue ourselves based on an old, ancient, program DNA/GOD/whoever, whatever
coded long ago. And the main behavior of our economic system is based on continuation...obviously.

We have replaced hunting and gathering with technology....if you are honest about the fact that we are not just classified as animals, but actually act exactly as a wild animal acts, you will understand the fact that we used to be BRUTAL about making sure our clans were fed. Just as other animals do after they hunt down prey...if other animals try to take what is theirs, they will attack them. We did the same things. And we STILL have the same primal motivations which now are orbiting around our more "civilized societies".

I feel sad to watch the country I was born in fall to pieces in shallowness, greed, and selfishness.
America has never really had a plan. It's as if we just go with the flow. The world is going to fall apart a thousand times before we get it right I'm afraid. We have evolved quite a bit...but the animals which chased us in the past still chase us to this day. ONE DAY....we will not be our own worse enemies.
ONE DAY....all we will try to escape..the only thing chasing us, will be the one thing which has consistantly chased us from the very begeinning...and that is time.

I also believe there will be groups of people who manage to hold onto the abilty to utilize technology in a way that helps them leave the planet behind. And yes, there will be ALOT of people left behiind as well. The world economy will collapse. And from the ashes will rise a new genetically
engineered form of life. All we can do is hope they aren't like the borg. lol. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.


Who knows, maybe we will rebuild our world before it's too late? Maybe it really doesn't matter who is responsible for the fincancial crisis. And maybe everyone who posted why it happened, and who made it happen, are collectively correct. It was you, it was me, it was we. I sure would hate to be a leader in todays world. Religious conflicts....resources depleting....I sense a very strange revolution.

If you want me to be honest...I don't think we will ever make it off the planet if we don't make up for the horrors of the past and present. I don't think the rules of nature, as we know them on earth, are the same rules of a higer evolved species. I think greed only leads to a cancer like state...a barbaric canabalistic existense...one who thinks and has free will ...and continues on the same path we always have...will become like a parasite and destroy all which is needed to continue.

It's just another phase of societal evolution. We all play a tiny role in the theater..the theater we did not make. We are not spared the agonies of existense because we feel special. But we can work to fix problems...but how do you do that with so many opposing views?

For one..you invest in technology and education like there is no tomorrow. You provide EVERYONE with the same educational oppurtunites amd judge not the ones who can not obtain the same levels of sucess as others...we are all brothers and sistes under the Sun...the sun we did in fact come from. What's in us..is in the stars. Stop the genocide...stop the killing...and to be honest with you, start reprromming those of us born into societies which preach violence. It has been shown that people who are religiously fanatical....have a region in the brain that is infact, not well. They call it the god region or something like that. It's been classified as a mental illness.

Have pitty on those with mental illness..even though they would kill you and your family with not even a second thought. They have been taught nothing other than hate. And the monetary systems we all live in is consuming us all. We are letting that which we created consume us and people we don't even know.

Look what gets into the products we buy. Anyone who reads alot can tell you that we are being poisoned by companies with nothing more than money on their mind. Look what coorporations
do to villages.....or poor people who live on the mountains . Rivers and creeks get polluited...birth defects occur.

We are genetically engineering food...at one point they weren't even @#$@#$ telling us in America that we were eating food that was altered by scientists in a lab. We have become nothing more than a bunch of lab rats in many of their eyes. There was a scientist who worked for a company that made cosmetics. He went to a jail to find ppl to test the products on. As he walked into the prison for the first time he said that all he saw was a sea of skin....sounds like something a nazi might have said....

In the past, I never imagined I would be saying such things. But....the more I read, the more I learn, the more I see what is really happening.


Even Thomas Jefferson saw the dangers of big government.

I don't care if most people don't read this. But what I do care about....are the ones who do and can see past my typing errors...ect....the ones who know what I'm saying are the ones who have briught their minds past the breaking point...and reshaped the very way in which their brains function. The ones who will be leaders of the future. Our knowledge, and ability to add to it, is rapidly increasing. And it's time the few stop leading the many. Look where we have been taken so far. All the death...has to stop.

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

 

[ddcddc]

You are almost completely right. We are spending too much money on the military. We should onlly spend enough to stay ahead of our big threats and get out of the middleeast. We should put more money into things like schools, hitech industry and NASA. People always go why are we spending billions of dollars on Nasa welll heres the answer. We aren't always going to have the earth, we have developed over 100 new technologies from the space program, and it is our future.

The persons post I am replying to..said that pointing a nuke is sufficient to stop another country from doing anything. This is NOT true of people who actually wish to die for their god. The only way to stop them would be to alter their brains. And you know what...call me crazy if you wish...I believe anything is possible. And if we can alter other's brains and stop people from being killed...stop the @#$#$ horrors of war... THEN SO BE IT. Atleast soldiers will be able to go home to their families...our enemies family loves them like ours love...the love of a mother and father for their child is universal.

If people believe they have the right to blow us up....shoot us....kill us in any way they see fit...then surely we would have the right to alter their brains in a way that will stop them from wanting to do so.

Who cares whose fault our current economic problem is.....who cares how it happened....
Let's just do something about it now before it gets worse. America was founded on the the beliief that all men are created equal. Many people...of many ethic backrounds, died to make this a truth. To escape the opression of government...to escape slavery of the body and MIND.

There was one man who helped the slaves...a white man. His desire to help all people came from his father. He saw a white slave owner whipping one of his slaves. And he thought it wasn't right because god was that slaves father just as he was his father...and what father would let his son be treated in such a way? There were many people like this in american history who we never hear about. But his good intentions took him on a road to the same sort of evil that he opposed.

He and a group of men that followed him began to slaighter men who fought for the south. He killed men in front of their families....children watched it all. This should be a lesson....beware of the darkness you fight...for it might turn you into the very thing you are detest...

I can't remember the mans name...does anyone know??? John Borwn maybe? I'm not sure...


Sadly..I feel all this is simply wishful thinking.....idealogy. Who knows..................we
have created something which seemingly has a life of it's own. Will it turn out to be our friend...or our end?


At the rate we are going.....the wars will not end.


<sorry for the rambling...but it's good to get it out I suppose. It's obvious I just kinda spewed this out...lol.>

But you have to admit...wouldn't it be nice if we could get it right??
Edit:
My post may seem off target. But in all reality..it was not just one person or one moment whcih brought us to our current problems.

 

[CWeb Creative]

You don't think that $65 billion, stolen from our real estate and publicly traded stocks, etc, has anything to do with the collapsing market; and directly related to the recession? I understand that our deficit is in the trillions, but $65 billion is not couch-change.

When its from multiple people and not many big companys then you it is pocket change and had very little effect on the recession. What did have a big effect was the ripping off that the banks were doing to consumers. Again you can't trust business to do the right thing.

 

[phazzedout]

@ddcddc Dang. You poured your heart into this post. Well I read all of it. It does seem rather pessimistic but you do make a valid point, if people feel that they will go to heaven if they die for their "god" then a nuke will not stop them. Of course, I am speaking general nations, not militant groups, if America were smarter we would see that Mexico's drug war is also our war. Go to Mexico, every Mexican there will tell you that it is our fault that their drug gangs are actually militant groups, they mostly say because Americans can not handle addiction. I don't know. Well the Mexican drug gangs are coming over here. Would that be good for us. Probably not. America should learn to use their reason, actually everyone.