You wouldn't steal a CD...

Is piracy stealing?

  • Yes, it is like kidnapping a baby!

    Votes: 9 23.1%
  • No, if you don't get caught! Muaha!

    Votes: 30 76.9%

  • Total voters
    39

phazzedout

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... so why would you download the CD. The MPAA and the RIAA have for years come up with silly slogans like this. Today's debate is whether internet piracy is stealing. I will state my opinion on it, state some of what they says and state something I say.

For starters I do not believe internet piracy is really stealing. Now whether it is good or bad is the real question. I see internet piracy as a form of exchanging knowledge, things like amateur documentaries, underground music, and of course getting information to countries with censorship. These are the positives I see and I run with these positives.

Many companies and labels seem to state that it is stealing at it's finest.

Is this stealing?

piracyisnottheft.jpg


Now when the RIAA or record labels state that we steal their music and they lose money... are they really losing money.

Here is a story about what I did before I knew about piracy. ... Nothing. The only CD's I have ever bought were Rob Zombie: Past, Present and Future and Slayer: Skeleton Christ. I bought these two albums when they just came out. Now you tell me the gap of when I bought CD's. Pretty large gap. Apparently the imaginary dollars they lost by me or anyone downloading it instead is huge. It is not, every album I have downloaded I would never buy in my life.

I do go to concerts though.

Tell me your insight?
 

joejv4

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Piracy is indeed stealing. What is being stolen? Intellectual Property.

Music, software, motion pictures etc are the intellectual property of the entitiy that created it. When an individual purchases that IP, they are essentially purchasing a license to use that IP. In the case of music, the license is to one copy of a given song - in whatever format they purchased it (CD, MP3, WMA, etc.), in software, they are purchasing a license to install and run that software per the terms of the license agreement. They do not purchase the right to redistribute that IP, nor do they purchase the right to copy that IP.

The question of losing money is where you have directed the thrust of your opening statement. The fact that you wouldn't purchase a CD, means nothing with regards to lost revenue to the owner of the material you download. The "LEGAL" music download sites require payment for the material that is downloaded - this allows users to obtain license to individual pieces of IP in a format they prefer rather than buying a license to a whole collection as with a CD. The download fees paid at legal download sites are the new revenue stream for the owners of the IP instead of retail sale of a physical disc.

When an individual uses "sharing sites" to acquire pirated copies of the IP, they are not paying for the license for the IP in question and bypassing the rightful revenue stream that the owner of the IP is entitled to - which is indeed stealing.
 

silkje

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"you wouldnt steal that CD, so why download the CD" The answer is obvious, because they are at a better price

There are companies thriving online (games especially EVEN with piracy, eg steam & direct2drive). This also seems like a suitable time to bring up a singer called lily allen, i havent actually heard her (or if i have i didnt know it was her) who said shes against piracy because it hurts all the up and coming artists and she can say this now because she's made it. This really confused me because she made it during the internet era!

So basically i do not think piracy really does that much damage, no more than when say tape recorders or video recorders came out. The markets just changing. Also i heard how it actually helps develop the IT industries of some countries .

My own personal feelings is that if you enjoy an artist or whatever you should show your support and buy it.

So is stealing copying?

If a person was to obtain a copied file from a download site, would it still be bound to the (ORIGINAL files) agreement that it should not be copied?

Now lets say the copied file is still under some license agreement, how about instead of paying the company, just return their property.. i guess you cant though because its a copy.

So was it stolen? Kind of (lol) Joe explained it quite well and i understand what he is saying but "Intellectual property" is very abstract. Also region would play a part, for example the RIAA would hardly operate outside of America.
 

fractalfeline

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Just for info, to see what has transpired before, so we kinda know where we are all picking up from:

http://forums.x10hosting.com/off-topic/106117-mininova-only-allow-legal-torrents.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/gamers-lounge/96814-downfall-gaming-industry.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/101503-should-old-games-legal-download.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/83479-warez-no-warez.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/computers-technology/96905-pirate-bay-verdict.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/92921-will-you-keep-getting-free-software.html
http://forums.x10hosting.com/computers-technology/97936-canada-internet-piracy-capital.html

The post I found most convincing though is this:
http://www.salon.com/technology/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html

Just to state my position clearly, I'm pro-piracy, mostly because I'm anti-industry. It's not fair to the artists, and certainly not fair to the public, the policies that the industry uses to distribute music, theatre, games, and art in general. Allowing single-track downloads for cheap is a step in the right direction, I think... but I'd like to believe that even that one dollar I spend on iTunes is going mostly toward the artist, not the uncreative middle man who decides for me what I should want to hear.

I find some of the best music coming out of the smaller labels, and the artists that have a lot less promotion. I find that today, the quality of the "art" churned out is lacking, and I prefer to seek out old songs, old games, or turn to the more underground/Indie scene to find quality. If I can download directly from the artist, alls the better. If I can preview the product before I buy it, even better. I mean, for comparison purposes:

A song from a woman who bought her own instruments, recording equipment, and webcam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4qaYMekGXo
vs. an Industry Produced Song from (in my opinion) a crappy artist with a synthetic voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I

I prefer the former, somehow.
 

miguelkp

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Just to state my position clearly, I'm pro-piracy, mostly because I'm anti-industry. It's not fair to the artists, and certainly not fair to the public, the policies that the industry uses to distribute music, theatre, games, and art in general. Allowing single-track downloads for cheap is a step in the right direction, I think... but I'd like to believe that even that one dollar I spend on iTunes is going mostly toward the artist, not the uncreative middle man who decides for me what I should want to hear.

That's the problem... It probably won't go mostly toward the artist instead toward that 'middle man'.
The problem is that 'art industry' (it's really strange... a beautiful word like 'art' near a very ugly one like 'industry') is obsolete. Completely.
And they are trying to convince us that we're wrong instead of admit they are absolutely obsolete.
In other words: a whole society doen't need to adapt itself to industry. They are who must adapt themselves to society.

That's my opinion. As user and as 'almost-artist', since I've a music band, by the way. Amateur (for now, but who knows...)
 

phazzedout

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Music, software, motion pictures etc are the intellectual property of the entitiy that created it. When an individual purchases that IP, they are essentially purchasing a license to use that IP. In the case of music, the license is to one copy of a given song - in whatever format they purchased it (CD, MP3, WMA, etc.), in software, they are purchasing a license to install and run that software per the terms of the license agreement. They do not purchase the right to redistribute that IP, nor do they purchase the right to copy that IP.

Not exactly correct, when you buy IP you have the right to protect your investment, whether that is transferring your CD to your computer, or making a copy of it, you still have the right to. Just because Sony says to not do it doesn't mean that the DMCA says you can not.

The question of losing money is where you have directed the thrust of your opening statement. The fact that you wouldn't purchase a CD, means nothing with regards to lost revenue to the owner of the material you download. The "LEGAL" music download sites require payment for the material that is downloaded - this allows users to obtain license to individual pieces of IP in a format they prefer rather than buying a license to a whole collection as with a CD. The download fees paid at legal download sites are the new revenue stream for the owners of the IP instead of retail sale of a physical disc.

So you are saying because I would never buy a CD in my life with or without piracy they lose money. That is like saying I own a shop, and a potential customer walks in and looks then leaves, while I say damn I just lost money. How does that even make any sense.

I see downloading music as a form of advertisement for the band. I never see buying CD as an option. When I love the band I advertise them by buying their merchandise and wearing it or of course going to their concerts. That is how I see downloading music.


When an individual uses "sharing sites" to acquire pirated copies of the IP, they are not paying for the license for the IP in question and bypassing the rightful revenue stream that the owner of the IP is entitled to - which is indeed stealing.

Perhaps but my real question is, what are they losing? If anything they have more to gain since their music is within the reach of people who can not spend 20 dollars per CD but are willing to spend 40 dollars on monthly concerts.


So basically i do not think piracy really does that much damage, no more than when say tape recorders or video recorders came out. The markets just changing. Also i heard how it actually helps develop the IT industries of some countries.

I remember when my father first saw me downloading music (This band was actually letting people download their music under Creative Commons 3.0). Then he said, "I bet those greedy companies are saying that the Internet is killing their sales." I laughed and asked why, he said, "Because those same bass tards said that too when the radio came out then when the cassette came out." And it is true, but then they used it to their advantage which is what they should do with the internet.

On another note, how many of you have ever bought an album that has been raved by MTV and other music media and found out that only one song is good. I never had that happen because before I downloaded music I would just listen to the radio and go to the concert of who has great to my ears.
Edit:
That's the problem... It probably won't go mostly toward the artist instead toward that 'middle man'.

Just because people download and share their CD's and DVD's online does not mean that they do not support their artist. Take for instance a close friend of mine, every Metal artist he likes he buys their album, merchandise and goes to their concert. Does he buy their music blindly, heck no. What he does is he first downloads the album online, then if he likes what he hears he buys their album. Why would he risk his hard earned money to buy an album that, to him, either "sold out" or other things. That is really my argument.

What are these artists really losing.
 
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descalzo

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phazzedout said:
For starters I do not believe internet piracy is really stealing. Now whether it is good or bad is the real question. I see internet piracy as a form of exchanging knowledge,

So you have no problem with warez or nulled scripts? Someone taking a web template off the net and using it without paying the creator's fee?
 

phazzedout

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So you have no problem with warez or nulled scripts? Someone taking a web template off the net and using it without paying the creator's fee?

Not exactly. My argument is mostly directed towards the Music Industry. That is what is mostly downloaded and shared. 3mb per song on a 1.5mb internet connection. It wouldn't take much to upload and download. Now movies, software and games are downloaded less with warez, or p2p clients. That is more of a torrent area, which is actually used the least by regular users.
 

descalzo

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Not exactly. My argument is mostly directed towards the Music Industry. That is what is mostly downloaded and shared. 3mb per song on a 1.5mb internet connection. It wouldn't take much to upload and download. Now movies, software and games are downloaded less with warez, or p2p clients. That is more of a torrent area, which is actually used the least by regular users.

So what, exactly?

Is it the manner of theft that makes it OK?

Or is it because you are stealing from the Evil Musik Empire who rips off artists and consumers alike? ie, stealing from a thief is OK.
 

xav0989

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I will speak here principally about the music industry (I myself do buy all my games instead of downloading them, pirated). The problem I believe is that the art that used to be music has turned into a simple money-making business. You almost don't even need to be skillful, but simply to get lucky or so. The fact that piracy (or more like sharing, because somebody initially bought the CD) is very present could represent the way people feel about this change. Music used to be an real art. Music used to be something poets did. Now, the musicians and singers are more like businessmen to me.
I believe the real money-making part should not be CDs, as some people say, but shows. The complete experience of being there, seeing the performers LIVE. Since you can't pirate that experience, then that is where the people should aim at. I heard of a group that did exactly that. They slowed down on the CD production and starting performing live more. They are better of than what they were before.
 

mand3v

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Developers deserve credits for their effort. Hence, piracy is unethical. But what if someone is selling a piece of junk at sky-high price? Who's unethical there? For an example, M$ Window$..... is it really worth the money they claim it to be for? Point is, if you're making money with it or capable of paying, you should pay for it. This is what I believe.
 

phazzedout

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So what, exactly?

Is it the manner of theft that makes it OK?

Or is it because you are stealing from the Evil Musik Empire who rips off artists and consumers alike? ie, stealing from a thief is OK.

Your argument is that because I would download an album that I am taking the credit for creating it. I am completely against this. I never download a song and rename it Hells Bells by PhazzedOut. That would be silly and really taking their intellectual property.

See there is where you are wrong. You seem to think that I see it as stealing, when I say it is not. I have never saw piracy as stealing. Before internet, the music companies would say that copying a song from the radio to a tape is stealing, would you say it is stealing. I wouldn't say it is stealing for I see it as a form of advertisement to get people to support them by buying their merchandise or going to their shows. That is how i see.
Edit:
I will speak here principally about the music industry (I myself do buy all my games instead of downloading them, pirated). The problem I believe is that the art that used to be music has turned into a simple money-making business. You almost don't even need to be skillful, but simply to get lucky or so. The fact that piracy (or more like sharing, because somebody initially bought the CD) is very present could represent the way people feel about this change. Music used to be an real art. Music used to be something poets did. Now, the musicians and singers are more like businessmen to me.
I believe the real money-making part should not be CDs, as some people say, but shows. The complete experience of being there, seeing the performers LIVE. Since you can't pirate that experience, then that is where the people should aim at. I heard of a group that did exactly that. They slowed down on the CD production and starting performing live more. They are better of than what they were before.

I easily agree with you here. And even so some people still buy CDs. My girlfriend is a great example. She tends to buy CDs periodically of a couple of artists especially one in general. My girlfriend really loves this metal artists name Otep. One day she wanted to buy an album and I asked her why, she said, "I feel obligated because I love her music and also, I mean, it is not the same to download." then I asked her, how do you feel about the other ones you download but do not support with merchandise and cds, she says, "Well I don't buy their (sic) for a (sic)ing reason, because they are only good to listen at after you are done getting excited over a real artist."

To sum it all up, she sees the new form of getting music as a way to tell artists to start working hard or no one will care to see you and you will die off (Survival of the fittest, or in this case, survival of the most talented.)
Edit:
Developers deserve credits for their effort. Hence, piracy is unethical. But what if someone is selling a piece of junk at sky-high price? Who's unethical there? For an example, M$ Window$..... is it really worth the money they claim it to be for? Point is, if you're making money with it or capable of paying, you should pay for it. This is what I believe.

I kind of agree with you to a sense. I buy most of my software. I actually remember buying a game called Oblivion twice (one for PC another for XBOX, they made 120 dollars off me...). Of course I do also see that some people can not afford certain software like Adobe Suite or Microsoft Office, essentially boiling down to my great emphasis on exchanging knowledge. Now there are good alternatives for some of these things like Microsoft Office every day is getting their ass kicked on the personal audience by OpenOffice which is free. Also Photoshop has Gimp which helps as well but what about when you have a person who is 16 and wants to learn a little game design. The person can read all the books he wants but what if he can't scrape up the money to buy Autodesk Maya or Autodesk 3Ds Max. Will we let him become ignorant because he is poor. Seems rather unfair. Which is why most large corporations care little to none if some kid in arkansas stole their software to evaluate it. Do they care if a company like Ubisoft is not buying Autodesk Maya, heck yes they will be, and with good cause. This brings us back to your other statement that if they make money we should pay for the software. I agree with you on that as well, to a certain extent. That is my opinion on it.
 
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joejv4

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Ahhh but piracy IS stealing. The creators of IP, be it software, music, movies, games, etc. either put their work in the public domain, or they do not. When their work is in the public domain, then it is not stealing to copy it, share it upload and download it, as the creators of that material are not expecting any reimbursement for it.

On the flip-side, when someone creates something and does NOT put it in the public domain, they do so expecting revenue from it, and that does not mean the revenue generated by the sale of a single copy, which is in turn uploaded, downloaded, recopied and passed around the internet. Anybody that downloads an already illegal copy is indeed stealing revenue from the entity that created the work in question. It is the same as "knowingly receiving stolen goods", which is illegal.

On the topic of music, the logic of "I go to concerts" doesn't wash. The artists, more often than not have already spent months writing their music, then months in the studio recording their music for sale on their latest CD. The compensation for that work is retail sale of their music - be it CD's or paid downloads. The money they see from live concerts is their compensation for travelling to a city and performing there.

Regardless of how much the "industry" makes on the sales of the music, some of that revenue does go to the artists. When someone pirates their material, they are stealing revenue not only from the industry, but from the artist.

Stealing is stealing, and it doesn't matter if it's a download or walking into a store and sticking a CD in your pocket, it's the same thing.
 

phazzedout

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Ahhh but piracy IS stealing.

Not exactly ;)


On the flip-side, when someone creates something and does NOT put it in the public domain, they do so expecting revenue from it, and that does not mean the revenue generated by the sale of a single copy, which is in turn uploaded, downloaded, recopied and passed around the internet. Anybody that downloads an already illegal copy is indeed stealing revenue from the entity that created the work in question. It is the same as "knowingly receiving stolen goods", which is illegal.

I love the part of knowingly receiving stolen goods! :biggrin:

To counter your argument you seem to think that even if I had no intentions of ever buying the CD even if there was no free version (illegal or legal) they are essentially losing revenue. This is not the case, let's say I am the lead singer of an underground metal band, for the sake of argument. Well I am underground not many people will even listen to my art, I can place CDs all over record stores like Virgin or Wal-mart's electronic section but if no one even heard of me what is the point. This is where the internetz come in, someone which you call a thief, buys my album and loves what he is hearing and wants to share it among friend (that is part of human nature is sharing... weird..). 4 out of 5 of his friends too enjoy what they hear and lets say one of them uploads them on torrents, another accidentally places his music on his Music folder which is already being shared by a p2p client and someone else posts it on his website. What they just did was advertise my band, bringing in more revenue of diehard fans who buy my merchandise, wear my name on their shirt, go to my concert and even buy my new albums that come with cute little things like behind the scenes dvd or a poster. I became a little more mainstream and my infamy grows even across national borders since the internet essentially has not borders.


On the topic of music, the logic of "I go to concerts" doesn't wash. The artists, more often than not have already spent months writing their music, then months in the studio recording their music for sale on their latest CD. The compensation for that work is retail sale of their music - be it CD's or paid downloads. The money they see from live concerts is their compensation for travelling to a city and performing there.

That is how you see and I respect that but I see it as the opposite, I see the traveling as their compensation for their work, they go on tour for a year rack up a solid million or more which is what the more mainstream artists rack up, and work another year making an album. Inevitably, people will still buy your album if they really love your music because they feel obligated too. Just ask people who buy certain albums but download the rest. They feel obligated.


Regardless of how much the "industry" makes on the sales of the music, some of that revenue does go to the artists. When someone pirates their material, they are stealing revenue not only from the industry, but from the artist.

I don't wish to go all Robin Hood preachy on this forum but how much are we really stealing from them. Really? Some record companies only give their artists 10 percent. Sometimes the artist isn't really the artist, my cousin works to sell lyrics to big artists, he only gets 1 percent of each CD. Who is the real artist, who is really stealing.

If you want to know who he gives his lyrics to, they are latin artists of genres like reggaeton, bachate, and banda. (He also doesn't get credit for his work...)

Stealing is stealing, and it doesn't matter if it's a download or walking into a store and sticking a CD in your pocket, it's the same thing.

You don't see the difference? Look at my picture again, a CD is actually property. The record companies and record stores do lose money because the cd they used and ink they printer the cover art on cost money. They really lose money, what do they lose with something with something they really don't spend money on.
 

farscapeone

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Again and again and again ... same debate, same questions.

People are downloading songs and movies because they can and there's nothing MPAA, RIAA, ABCD, OPQR, HDKA (LOL!) or any other four letter thing can do about it. Too many people are doing it and you can't stop all of them.

The only thing they can do is to be flexible. Music industry saw that and they are finding new ways to make money (like music download services you get with your 3G or other mobile subscription) but movie industry is far form flexible. If you look an any DVD or Blue-Ray movie you'll see a small letters saying you can't even borrow the it to your friend. If they could they would forbid you to even call some friends over to watch it. That's just stupid.

Now, with broadband connections and easy sharing technologies, there's no way to stop sharing.

And yes, I do download pirated content (as a meter of fact, I'm downloading some torrents right know :) )
 

phazzedout

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Again and again and again ... same debate, same questions.

People are downloading songs and movies because they can and there's nothing MPAA, RIAA, ABCD, OPQR, HDKA (LOL!) or any other four letter thing can do about it. Too many people are doing it and you can't stop all of them.

The only thing they can do is to be flexible. Music industry saw that and they are finding new ways to make money (like music download services you get with your 3G or other mobile subscription) but movie industry is far form flexible. If you look an any DVD or Blue-Ray movie you'll see a small letters saying you can't even borrow the it to your friend. If they could they would forbid you to even call some friends over to watch it. That's just stupid.

Now, with broadband connections and easy sharing technologies, there's no way to stop sharing.

And yes, I do download pirated content (as a meter of fact, I'm downloading some torrents right know :) )

Lol I love your simple argument of, "I do it, so I don't care what you think." It is effective but this could be important if the debate is brought up in your country. I don't see this debate coming up in the future anywhere near america but I hope we could show them that our instinct to share is stronger than their FBI security warnings (5 years of prison or 250k dollar fine) Lol.

When I go to Los Angeles the urban neighborhoods, you will not go 3 miles without seeing a pirated media stand. Whether it is music or videos. I have yet to see software but those are the biggies, the funny part is that they only sell really bad camera recorded films. I think I would rather wait to buy the DVD.
 

David

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That is how you see and I respect that but I see it as the opposite, I see the traveling as their compensation for their work, they go on tour for a year rack up a solid million or more which is what the more mainstream artists rack up, and work another year making an album. Inevitably, people will still buy your album if they really love your music because they feel obligated too. Just ask people who buy certain albums but download the rest. They feel obligated.


Well, actually, artists generally make no money from record sales. Most labels, as part of a signing contract, require new artists to front some of the money for production costs (studio and CD writing/distro). The actual artists themselves seen almost nothing, if nothing at all, from CD sales until the CD goes platinum or multi-platinum.

The artists only make any money from their live shows while they tour. Now, one could argue then, that it is practical for people to be able to freely download the artists' music since it would raise hype for the band and drive people in hoards to see the concert. This is not the case. Since the profits from CD sales cover the costs of production, without that form of sales revenue the profits from touring across the world would then be needed to cover production costs and therefore all of our artists would essentially be working their tails off in and out of the studio for free.

Would you walk into a supermarket and steal a candy bar? No. Would you jump a guy outside the bank and take his credit card? Absolutely not.

The point to ALL of this absolute rubbish is that YOU DO NOT OWN IT! And therefore, it is not yours to give away. When you purchase a song, you are not buying exclusive rights to the song, you are simply purchasing a LICENSE to listen to that song with limited audience numbers. You are also receiving a license to create a PERSONAL backup of that song.

Think about how you may react after you just spent hundreds, maybe thousands, of hours tirelessly pouring over musical compositions, endlessly editing and modifying lyrics making sure the rhythm and rhyme scheme of the words are absolutely perfect and beyond reproach. Then you get together with your band and spend hours and days memorizing all the work you did on all this music, and you make yet more changes, more modifications, perfecting it further, doing your damnedest to make that C# sound ever so slightly clearer, making that G sound more like a G, and so on.

Finally you are ready to release your music. You toss a few freebies, a couple singles that are extremely catchy and that embody your group's sound at it's paramount, to some major radio stations all over the world. You send the music to press, after of course spending days or weeks working with a design team on the cover art and track arrangement.

And now, not even days after the release of your album, every one of your songs are all over the Internet freely available in crystal-clear quality for everyone to enjoy. You just gave away over a year's worth of work for free. Your CDs are now on the rack at Walmart and BestBuy collecting dust, or worse in the Sale bin for 15% off, stores just hoping to get rid of the stock.

Well, at least you have your tour to look forward to so you can bail yourself out of debt. Assuming your label doesn't cancel it because your album didn't sell.

I know some of this sounds very melodramatic, but it's the harsh reality of what Internet downloading will one day do to bands, and is already doing to some. I mean, come on, would you walk into a restaurant and order and eat food, then sneak out when the server wasn't paying attention? This is really no better than that, only we can't get your license plate number on our surveillance system as you pull out.
 
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phazzedout

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Well, actually, artists generally make no money from record sales. Most labels, as part of a signing contract, require new artists to front some of the money for production costs (studio and CD writing/distro). The actual artists themselves seen almost nothing, if nothing at all, from CD sales until the CD goes platinum or multi-platinum.

Yes, I talked to one person, a rapper who was rising. He was talking to my girlfriend's cousin who dropped school just to pursue a career in the music industry. The rapper told him that unless he has money to pay for the production cost to get back in school. Very sad, but oh well.

The artists only make any money from their live shows while they tour. Now, one could argue then, that it is practical for people to be able to freely download the artists' music since it would raise hype for the band and drive people in hoards to see the concert. This is not the case. Since the profits from CD sales cover the costs of production, without that form of sales revenue the profits from touring across the world would then be needed to cover production costs and therefore all of our artists would essentially be working their tails off in and out of the studio for free.

That is not the case anymore as it was during the 70's or 80's, maybe even in the 90's. Now a days they see that record sales will be lower than usual, but then again you must see records still get sold. How could artists like Rob Zombie, Taylor Swift or others still get their platinum, because they have die hard fans. The internet, does not really affect their sales that much, as a matter of fact I see it as a chance for them to improve.

I recall to how the 70's and 80's was the era of one hit wonders. One song was their best ever and they would rack in millions at the cost of people who worked hard for their money. Today you can evaluate the music well knowing that you might only get one or two good songs per album. Let's say for the sake of argument I find an album with 3 great songs out of 15, the album costs 20 dollars. That is 6 dollars per song! (7 if you round.) I am a consumer and if I find a cheaper alternative I would go for it.

This goes back to online music stores. Now let's say I can buy one song for 2 dollars each, that would be cheaper wouldn't it. Not exactly, you are ignorant to what are the good songs in the album, so you buy every song from there. You just spent an extra 10 than you would an a hard copy. See my argument. They should really work with the consumer to not rip them off with "fill ins".

Would you walk into a supermarket and steal a candy bar? No. Would you jump a guy outside the bank and take his credit card? Absolutely not.

Don't you just love these big companies! :biggrin: You would share the candy bar. :drool:

The point to ALL of this absolute rubbish is that YOU DO NOT OWN IT! And therefore, it is not yours to give away. When you purchase a song, you are not buying exclusive rights to the song, you are simply purchasing a LICENSE to listen to that song with limited audience numbers.

I would like to argue the fine line between sharing and giving away. Let's bring that up. Of course with the respect of piracy.


You are also receiving a license to create a PERSONAL backup of that song.

Sony Entertainment seems to think other wise. They seem to think that if you back it up you are automatically breaking the law, in respect to to the DMCA. I would say mostly because some people share their music without knowing. Today I could buy a CD, and back it up on my Music folder that is shared with a P2P client.

Think about how you may react after you just spent hundreds, maybe thousands, of hours tirelessly pouring over musical compositions, endlessly editing and modifying lyrics making sure the rhythm and rhyme scheme of the words are absolutely perfect and beyond reproach. Then you get together with your band and spend hours and days memorizing all the work you did on all this music, and you make yet more changes, more modifications, perfecting it further, doing your damnedest to make that C# sound ever so slightly clearer, making that G sound more like a G, and so on.

Finally you are ready to release your music. You toss a few freebies, a couple singles that are extremely catchy and that embody your group's sound at it's paramount, to some major radio stations all over the world. You send the music to press, after of course spending days or weeks working with a design team on the cover art and track arrangement.

And now, not even days after the release of your album, every one of your songs are all over the Internet freely available in crystal-clear quality for everyone to enjoy. You just gave away over a year's worth of work for free. Your CDs are now on the rack at Walmart and BestBuy collecting dust, or worse in the Sale bin for 15% off, stores just hoping to get rid of the stock.

You seem to think that the sales of albums is non-existent. It is not, people will still buy an album. Honestly, if I were to hear an album where every song made me feel good, then I would go buy the album. I have not heard an album like that since Slayer: Skeleton Christ and Rob Zombie: Past, Present and Future, that is why I bought them.

Well if your music is real good, some people will still buy your album. Your record sales go up enough to plan a concert tour. You also count the people who downloaded illegally who might like it, might be a theoretical amount but you can not ignore that some people liked you music without buying it.

Well, at least you have your tour to look forward to so you can bail yourself out of debt. Assuming your label doesn't cancel it because your album didn't sell.

Isn't that part of the game, Social Darwinism, good bands will go on and bad will die. If your album did end up eventually selling a bunch of albums, and you go one tour and no one went, what can you blame. From that point forward you can not blame the internet. You can only blame yourself for being such a (sic)ty artist.

I know some of this sounds very melodramatic, but it's the harsh reality of what Internet downloading will one day do to bands, and is already doing to some. I mean, come on, would you walk into a restaurant and order and eat food, then sneak out when the server wasn't paying attention? This is really no better than that, only we can't get your license plate number on our surveillance system as you pull out.

That is not the same, I would direct you to my picture on the OP, that is what I see as stealing and what I see as piracy. You see how the original is gone, that is stealing, so running away from paying my lunch would be stealing.

It is not really the reality you only point out one side of piracy, which is the record companies and artist losing theoretical dollars, but not the side of the hard workers who buy the albums and get ripped off for having not so good music.

Also you have to take into consideration that some bands have been caught not being the original artist. (e.g. lip syncing someone elses written and sung music under the bands name.) This has happened.
 
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