You wouldn't steal a CD...

[phazzedout]

@fractalfeline This is not new to me but you did bring up a good point to this forum topic. I do feel some companies should burn. I did bring it up subtly by saying if they can't adapt they should burn, Social Darwinism 101 businesses who adapt will survive. Which is the case of the film industry. Honestly how many good films come out every year. Two... Three... what about the rest of them. Honestly I have seen some films where I feel I should go to hollywood and kick the writer and director right where it hurts. *cough* Twilight... I am not bashing on Twilight but I mean, geez... making the preteen girls deluded to what men really are. (Some)

@joejv4 Well you could say it is stealing but it is really a moral issue isn't it. To some they only see plagiarizing as steal, to others they see the whole thing as stealing. For me, it is really about circumstance, if you can afford it, then support the artists and directors you love. If you can't, at least promote them by getting a shirt every year about them so a rich kid could buy their album. See what I mean.

 

[fractalfeline]

@fractalfeline This is not new to me but you did bring up a good point to this forum topic. I do feel some companies should burn. I did bring it up subtly by saying if they can't adapt they should burn, Social Darwinism 101 businesses who adapt will survive. Which is the case of the film industry. Honestly how many good films come out every year. Two... Three... what about the rest of them. Honestly I have seen some films where I feel I should go to hollywood and kick the writer and director right where it hurts. *cough* Twilight... I am not bashing on Twilight but I mean, geez... making the preteen girls deluded to what men really are. (Some)

Seriously. They even botched Star Wars. I was looking forward to the prequels until I realized they were riding their reputation from 30 years ago to sell crap. I also totally agree with your sentiment re: Ashley Simpson and Twilight. Ugh.

For the record though, don't go throwing around words like Social Darwinism lightly. You'll start sounding like one of the Fated. http://mimir.net/psmush/takers.shtml Real Social Darwinism is a nightmare on wheels.

@joejv4 Well you could say it is stealing but it is really a moral issue isn't it. To some they only see plagiarizing as steal, to others they see the whole thing as stealing. For me, it is really about circumstance, if you can afford it, then support the artists and directors you love. If you can't, at least promote them by getting a shirt every year about them so a rich kid could buy their album. See what I mean.

So if they're poor, it's not stealing then? Hmm...

Or are you saying that if the poor are the ones stealing, then they can justify it better than those who have the means and ability to pay for it? If Winona Ryder steals a shirt from a department store, it's morally reprehensible; if a poor woman steals a shirt because her children don't have clothes and she has no money to buy one, is it somehow less morally reprehensible?

What if Winona Ryder was stealing a CD? What if the poor woman was stealing a CD because her children had no music? (Are CDs considered a luxury item, perhaps?)

Call a spade a spade, shall we?

 

[joejv4]

@joejv4 Well you could say it is stealing but it is really a moral issue isn't it. To some they only see plagiarizing as steal, to others they see the whole thing as stealing. For me, it is really about circumstance, if you can afford it, then support the artists and directors you love. If you can't, at least promote them by getting a shirt every year about them so a rich kid could buy their album. See what I mean.

Actually, I do not see what you mean. Plagiarism is stealing, piracy is stealing, stealing is stealing - regardless of the thief's financial situation. I'll reiterate: taking something that does not belong to you, without the owner's permission (or even worse, against the owner's wishes), is STEALING.

I can't afford a Lamborghini, according to your logic, I'm entitled to go to a dealership and take one, simply because I can't afford it. I like to edit my photos, but free and the low cost options available can't do the things I want to do, and since I can't afford PhotoShop and the plugins I want, It's perfectly OK for me to find a cracked version and download it?! I think not.

If you're walking down the street, and a poor man puts a gun to your face and demands your wallet, is it OK because he's poor?

Financial situation does not determine right or wrong.

Again, the only justification put forth thus far, which has at least some modicum of logic behind it, is the analogy between colonists stealing and vandalizing a shipload of tea to protest unfair taxation, and music being downloaded in protest of price gouging. Even that argument, however, is a stretch, as unfair taxation is a very different thing from the luxury of loading up an mp3 player for your personal enjoyment.

If someone wants to listen to music without paying for it, there is a technology in existence that will legally allow them to do just that... it's called a radio.

 

[phazzedout]

To respond to joe's and fracternal's responce. I forgot to add something. I mostly meant educational wise. Such as software or books. Probably should of clarified it. Such as, should we deprive the poor from an education. Should we deprive them from being graphic designers just because they can not afford photoshop? That is what I mean.

@fractalfeline I can't believe Ashlee Simpson... Have you heard how she really sings, real depressing. Social Darwinism, it sucks but I mean it works in most cases. Not today in age when companies are being bought by the government. We are straying too far away from the topic.

Would patents count as this. Would medical patents be immoral.

In any case. I don't really mean that poor people should be immune, I mostly mean to mirror how Benjamin Franklin felt. He felt books were too high in price (heck yes they are) so he decided to build a library. That is what I truly mean, do you really think i meant, if a coke head were to mug a person that is acceptable. Not really.

Edit:
Cocaine is actually expensive, so let's say a crack head.

 

[fractalfeline]

To respond to joe's and fracternal's responce. I forgot to add something. I mostly meant educational wise. Such as software or books. Probably should of clarified it. Such as, should we deprive the poor from an education. Should we deprive them from being graphic designers just because they can not afford photoshop? That is what I mean.

@fractalfeline I can't believe Ashlee Simpson... Have you heard how she really sings, real depressing. Social Darwinism, it sucks but I mean it works in most cases. Not today in age when companies are being bought by the government. We are straying too far away from the topic.

Would patents count as this. Would medical patents be immoral.

In any case. I don't really mean that poor people should be immune, I mostly mean to mirror how Benjamin Franklin felt. He felt books were too high in price (heck yes they are) so he decided to build a library. That is what I truly mean, do you really think i meant, if a coke head were to mug a person that is acceptable. Not really.

Edit:
Cocaine is actually expensive, so let's say a crack head.

Educational equity is a whole other topic, frankly, but since you brought it up:
I think the major reason there's differences in education between the rich and the poor has to do with the way the educational system is set up, tax-wise. If schools are supported by property taxes, and the inner city has crap property values, of course the inner city school will suck in comparison to suburban schools. Just saying... Also... you could call the price to pay for Adobe part of the tuition. Good luck though convincing the government to cover Adobe Photoshop with financial aid A clever school could probably figure a way around that. (Even if it is resorting to bootleg copies lol)

As for Social Darwinism, if you get a chance, read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

As for medical patents... there's a bucket of worms if I ever heard of one!!! Don't get me started ranting about the pharmaceutical industry!!! But in brief: a pharmaceutical company will hold the patent on a drug for as long as it can, so that rival companies can't make generic varieties (for cheap and in higher quantities). If that drug is a revolutionary life-saving drug, is it right to hold onto the patent, making it less accessible to patients who need it? Pretty sick isn't it? What ends up happening is, well-meaning doctors will take the "samples" that the pharm co gives out (for the patients to "try out" so they be impressed and asked for a prescription right?) and save them for when they get a patient that can't afford the treatment. Common practice, sad but true.

 

[joejv4]

What ends up happening is, well-meaning doctors will take the "samples" that the pharm co gives out (for the patients to "try out" so they be impressed and asked for a prescription right?) and save them for when they get a patient that can't afford the treatment. Common practice, sad but true.

If you get a good doctor, those samples can be a blessing. I'm on a prescription that my copay runs $45/month. I'm on a couple others that have generics and by using the pharmacies with special programs in place, only run me $10 for three months.

I came right out and told my Dr. that I won't take that particular Rx because of the price (with a family, it's just too expensive). For the last year and a half, he's been providing me with his samples because the medicine has dropped my LDL cholesterol and triglycerides dramatically.

Now I have to attempt to segue back to the original topic so as to not have hijacked this thread into an entirely different direction....

Medicine, is much more essential than music. When people can not afford it, and their Dr's can't provide samples, they simply go without. If people can not afford to purchase the music they like, they can go without, or, they can use the free alternative of radio. Radio stations choose formats, so if someone likes a particular genre of music, they can choose a station with that format. If their mood changes and they want to listen to something completely different, they can simply switch to a station that provides it. Yes, they have to deal with commercials and news/weather/traffic interruptions, but those interruptions are simply there to pay for the music for the listener.

 

[whitebus]

In Canada artists are subsidized with a pirate targetted tax on blank media. So if you create your own content artists steal right back from you when you buy the disks to store your own content.

Intellectual property can not and should not exist. Human knowledge in every form is gained from experience and shared experience. Skills are learned through trial and repetition. It doesn't matter if you are learning to play a guitar or learning to program a computer. Progress in human existence is seen in how we improve this transfer of knowledge. Legal and monetary schemes designed to protect the creator of the so called intellectual property stall the progress of human existence. Thus all copyright and patent laws should be abolished for the greater good of humanity.

 

[phazzedout]

@fractalfeline:
Well schools can not get pirated version. I believe I have brought this up, but software companies rarely care about one person taking a pirated copy of their software. What they do care about is a school or business taking 20+ copies of their software. They can sue and take as much money as they please. Schools are on their radar.

The governemnt is run by idiots, literally. They are stuck in the age they have lived in and think that education is football, woodshop and some of the general ed. Honestly I always argue this, what is the difference between me and a jock (high school football player). For one we both got bad grades but the difference is that they are sponsored by the school to fiddle around with sports (which is not important for the educational process) while I am not sponsored to fiddle around with computer web programming or other things. Which is more likely to make it big, the neaderthal jock or the kid who got an F in every class but went home and read books on philosophy and computer junk? The schools are to blame too.

Their excuse for a computer class was teaching Microsoft Office by an idiot who was sponsored by Microsoft. Litteraly this guy did not know anything, I would school him everytime and eventually he kicked me out. Mostly because I told him that he can easily be replaced by the power of F1! (F1 is usually the standard key to bring up the help page.)

I read The Jungle, LOL, by now or this day in age we should all be able to agree that some government control would be good but not the control we have in companies such as GM...

@joejv4|fractalfeline:
I dislike medical patents so much or anything medical. Here is a story in my life as to why... For the sake of argument let's call these medical people Pigs. Well almost 9 months ago I was getting major liver pains, these things hurt so much I would litterally sweat and feel weak after they went away. My parents would tell m things like burp maybe it is gas... etc. None of this help so I went to a free clinic (I am as poor as dirt...) the people were nice they tried to help me, they gave me simple tests like blood tests, urine tests, and other things. Also to clarify, I do not drink alcohol at all, I argued this for an hour with a nurse, she was surprised to see my urine and blood did not show any alcohol. So then they decided to get me a free 2 month thing for state health care. I thought that was great. It wasn't. They sent me to so many doctors, I got 2 CAT scans, 1 MRI scan, 5 X-Rays, 2 ultra-sounds, (put number here) blood tests, and many more things. After 1 and 3 weeks of testing, all they told me was, it is because you are over weight, I told them, "No (sic)ing (sic) sherlock, what do you think I have never been in front of a mirror before, honestly out of all these tests is this the best you could come up with?" he paused and said, "Let me write up a slip for more blood work.." I stopped him and said, "No that is ok I will not be needing your services anymore I would get better work praying to a statue." He got mad and left, I left as well. One week later I got the worst pain out of all of them, this one made me sick for a week. I was paying attention this time and I figured out it was my eating habits. I only eat one meal a day, but that one meal is alot. After this I eat 3 small meals and I have not had pains for 9 months. Piss me off...

@whitebus:
This country began making IP a business. Honestly, have you heard of the story of a man who took about 100 songs and created a new song. He was sued and fined. I do not know the outcome that is all I read and also saw in the documentary Steal this Film. I support IP linsenced under Creative Common, GPL, GNU and others like this.

 

[Smith6612]

@phazzedout: Your post reminded me of a thing I've been sitting on wondering about for a while. I've always wondered why schools still run off of a standardized curriculum even when you get very high into the courses and they have the chance to set up some pretty interesting courses. Being that this is an internal thought that I've been sitting on, it's not something I can easily post up but if I ever do get around to completing the thought, I'll post it up.

On the subject of IP though, that's why I look at the Creative Commons and release everything I produce into the public domain. I would prefer to stop this IP nonsense that happens now a days and I read about on a daily basis.

 

[fractalfeline]

@joejv4
I think the idea with bringing up medicine and patents is that faulty copyright laws and practices extend beyond the entertainment industry, and can be particularly heinous in some industries such as medicine. Generics for $10 is pretty good compared to the name-brand patented one that's $45 right? You'd get that one generic if you could right? But a pharm co will hold onto that patent at YOUR expense, as well as at the expense of the health of many who cannot afford it. Giving away samples as a prescription is technically dishonest on the part of the physician (but not stealing per se), but some things are more valuable than the "technical dishonesty" right? A Dr. has to trade a little integrity for the sake of benevolence.

But you're right, food and medicine are essential whereas entertainment is a luxury, so the ethics concerned is a little different. But still. If people cannot afford the medicine, and the Dr.s can't provide samples, they have to go without!!?!?! Wow. So a patient with renal disease can't afford the diuretics he needs to save himself from End Stage Renal Disease, dialysis, and a 5 year death sentence, so he just has to go without, just because some pharm co won't budge on its patent, and the patient can't get the generic label? That's pretty cold.

I like that internet radio has more variety than regular radio, so I actually -can- have some choice in what free music I listen to, rather than having the Big Biz tell me which popular crappy songs I have to listen to. I remember Yahoo used to have a "pick your own songs" type of radio until they discontinued it. :tear:

@phazzedout
lolwut?! So the schools are to blame for your Fs?! And you think you'll be successful getting Fs as long as you "know your stuff"?! U haz lawtz 2 lern abowt lif

This is totally off subject but, I have a theory about education. Somewhere out there is an employer, who is looking for people to eat a bucket of crap and produce at least average (C grade) quality goods and services. B grade goods is good, as long as it doesn't cost more, and A grade goods are the best. They have little to go on about who to hire except for little pieces of paper. You can have a resume that tells them all your skillz, but without a degree? Oh, where'd that recycle bin go?

What's a degree? It's a piece of paper that says "This person ate a bucket of crap and produced X" where X can be As, Bs, Cs, Ds, or Fs. A high school diploma means "This person ate a bucket of crap and produced at least Cs out of it." An undergraduate degree means "This person ate the high school crap and then came to eat our bucket of crap, and produced at least Cs out of it." A graduate degree means "This person ate crap for 12 years, and then ate 4 more years of crap, and then came here and ate even more crap, and still produced at least Cs." So the employer says "Well! This person's capacity to eat crap and still do the work is exceptional!" And then you get the job. The last thing an employer wants is a person who can't tolerate crap.

So some advice for you phazzedout: learn to tolerate crap, and you'll be more likely to succeed. /endrant

Meanwhile, as a medical student, I suppose I'm a pig. It would seem to me though, that what you encountered is a phenomenon not unique to medicine (in fact, it's everywhere) called "Can't Be Bothered to Care" which consists of people who aren't getting paid enough and get little appreciation or satisfaction from their jobs. If you aren't getting anything out of it, why put any effort into it? So being rude to your Doctor and the nurses doesn't really help. So, they spend 1-3 weeks trying to figure it out, and doing everything they can to try to help you, and the best you can do to repay them is curse them and storm out? Wow. If most of their patients are like that, and if it were me, I'd probably stop caring too. I mean, if I were a Doc, I'd be thinking, "I ate 12 years of crap, then 4 more years of crap, then another 4 years of crap, and anywhere from 4 to 12 years more crap, and produced nothing but As, and here I am, where more often than not I don't get paid because insurance denies coverage and the patient is too poor to pay it, I don't sleep properly because I'm always on call, I have already come to terms with the fact that all my relationships and family life will suffer because my work eats all my time, and some rude little prick walks in here and presumes to know medicine better than I do, chews out my nurses, and curses me out?"

@Smith6612
IP came about because the creators would come up with an idea and some prick would steal it, claim it for his own, and make absurd amounts of money for it. Creators had to come up with ways to protect themselves, and patents and IP laws were part of that. I'm all for free market, free flow of ideas, and the like, but the more "freedom" you give a society, the more likely the scum of the earth will find ways to exploit others. And the more laws you make to limit the scum from exploiting others, the more loopholes they find to exploit. It's just the way it goes. And when you have the scum making the laws, or paying lawmakers to make laws in their favor? Interesting how it works eh?

But I typically use Creative Commons too, because I don't mind people using my ideas, as long as they credit me. And if they're making some money off of it, I'd like to at least know about it, and have a share maybe. If the idea was modified enough, or they added their own ideas to it, then I won't pursue it, except to have some credit.

 

[smurfboi76]

Whom Stealing is wrong so I use Open Source and when I do download music it is under the creative commons license. Also it is technicality illegal for you to change the format of the song so if it is a wave you can only use it as a wave file (.wav) and can not convert it to an mp3 file or any other file format. Also MPAA is very picky in who they go after. Radio Stations often get really low rate for using the music because it is believed that it will get people to buy the album. Yet they don't allow an Internet radio station to play it. Oh The MPAA/Records companies are extremely picky and have only started to look at the piracy issue. Well I don't see them having to big of a gap in the profit that they make. Oh and they are already killing on the artist music. I like bands that license to the record companies because they in general control there works better. Oh and Metalica kinda started this mess with the hole napster comment started this snowball effect and got the MPAA. Records companies to start to flip out. Thats my two cents Thank you all.

 

[phazzedout]

@fractalfeline I never blamed my F's on my school, I blamed the school for something else (they support sports but not other things that are much more important). I am on my way to get my B.S. in Computer Science then M.S. probably Ph.D. I just say that the high school system is run by a bunch of idiots. I got my F's and bounced back 12th Grade. Was hard but they made an ROP class for Web Programming after school. It was a full class. So They used that to inspire me i guess. My F's were my F's, I never cared for school, I always just came right home and taught myself. Better than being a Jock...

They got paid handsomely... the pigs I mean. What are you talking about. I didn't complain at the free clinic because they didn't get paid much, I would hate my job so I was sympathetic. This other doctor made bank, he was just lazy and wanted to squeeze as much as he could out of my medical (California Health Care). I know some doctors are honest, but this one was not. I never give crap to the nurses, they are hot.... LOL. But trust me this doctor made a lot of money he was not a physician from a community hospital or free clinic. Also he forgot to take out the addresses out of his magazine subscriptions .

I am also against taking credit for someone elses work. Isn't that how record companies work though? Probably not but they do own all the right of someone elses work.

@smurfboi76 Yes I remember napster. Now it is a crappy program and comes stock with a lot of computers.... piss me off... The reason Napster got sued was because the artists got mad, then the industry reacted, most notably Metallica. Now-a-days some artists don't really care as long as you go to their concert. I remember going to a Five Finger Death Punch gig, and they asked, "Who actually got their lazy asses up and bought the CD?" Some people yelled and hollered, they later asked, "Now scream if you were the lazy asses who stayed home and downloaded our album." Other people yelled and hollored, then they exclaimed, "Lazy (sic)..." I don't ever see that coming from a Metallica concert. Probably from Slayer.

 

[kefka_asylum]

Re: You would steal a CD if...

yes i have stolen cds and made copies

i have also borrowed someone's cd and made tapes

i recorded and downloaded free content sourced from the world's web

ripping library cd's never felt so guilty

stealing your friend's favorite albums was always so exciting

but wait...

i borrowed this cd that was permanently the property of someone else

didnt that just become 9/10 of the law in my posession making this cd i borrowed mine?

how then did duplicating and replicating something just become property of 50000 people?


when i break cds with my bare hand its because i love the artists

not because i hate the RIAA




remember kids
john wilkes booth's documents are worth more than abraham lincoln's documents



i also demand to be paid for being alive

 

[phazzedout]

@kefka_asylum Lol sounds great that you have no feelings towards any aspect of intellectual property. That is ok though, many people could careless about intellectual property as well. But this post is more argueing is it ethical is it right, when should it not be right.

 

[xav0989]

@kefka_asylum Lol sounds great that you have no feelings towards any aspect of intellectual property. That is ok though, many people could careless about intellectual property as well. But this post is more argueing is it ethical is it right, when should it not be right.

As you said, and as I said, the problem lies within the record companies, not artists, artists, good artists, make their money by touring, not so by releasing new songs. Sometimes it feels that the record companies are really detached from the world, and really cold in their judgment.

 

[sedesign]

i think people don't see downloading things from the net as piracy, simply because they dont have to actually touch the product...

If you steal a CD, first you'd have to discretely hide it on yourself and then walk out, bypassing security and members of staff. I can only imagine (as i've never stolen anything from a shop) that the nerves and stress this could cause would be immense.

As for downloading music, I don't see it as theft because i just see everything as data - a collection of 1's and 0's (binary code) which have no physical properties.

Also, as previously mentioned on this thread, I wouldn't buy the majority of the stuff that comes out anyway! Take films for example, alot of them these days are half-assed scripts thrown together to get some actors and directors a bit of spotlight time, for example when people use the expression "oh, thats just a filler movie" its just something for them to do whilst their in between their next blockbuster hit... the problem is alot of movies have a big name in it, so people will say "wow did you know Seth Rogan has a new movie coming out!?!?!" and it turns out to be rubbish **cough** observe and report **cough** and people are disappointed with their purchase... people are sick of buying songs and movies that are thought to be good but turn out to be a disaster and you can't go off trailers anymore because trailers are made to make the movie look fantastic, not give you a snippit of the movie.

 

[blackhnd]

I don't know where the idiots at the MPAA/RIAA are getting this utter bs from. Downloading music/movies/software/whatever isn't stealing charging good money for the s*** they pump out is stealing. Adobe charges over $800 for Flash, which in the days of Macromedia, was awesome. Now, it's just a huge hunk of resource-hogging, clunky, confusing bytes which barely even runs. Tell me, is that not stealing, paying that much for something that hardly works?

MPAA-ESA-bashing time: The MPAA expects us to pay ten bucks (here in Canada, anyway) to see a POS movie that has no real story (*Twilight*) and then they say we're stealing from them when we torrent it? Nope, what they're doing is stealing. On to the ESA: They protect every fun and worthwile game and yell at us when we want to revive game like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time via emulation?! Cut the crap, you evil corporations, and get out of Bill Gates' bed!

 

[joejv4]

I don't know where the idiots at the MPAA/RIAA are getting this utter bs from. Downloading music/movies/software/whatever isn't stealing charging good money for the s*** they pump out is stealing. Adobe charges over $800 for Flash, which in the days of Macromedia, was awesome. Now, it's just a huge hunk of resource-hogging, clunky, confusing bytes which barely even runs. Tell me, is that not stealing, paying that much for something that hardly works?

MPAA-ESA-bashing time: The MPAA expects us to pay ten bucks (here in Canada, anyway) to see a POS movie that has no real story (*Twilight*) and then they say we're stealing from them when we torrent it? Nope, what they're doing is stealing. On to the ESA: They protect every fun and worthwile game and yell at us when we want to revive game like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time via emulation?! Cut the crap, you evil corporations, and get out of Bill Gates' bed!

I really can't see the logic in that whole argument. If it is crap - i.e. not worth paying for, then people wouldn't want it, via legal or illegal means. Obviously, if "crap" like *Twilight* was an absolutely worthless POS, then people wouldn't pay to see it in theaters, buy the DVD, or bother with torrenting it. The fact that people DO all of these things, says that it does indeed have some inherent value (or there would be no box office take, DVD sales, or demand for torrents).

This brings us back to the definition of stealing according to Webster's...
1 : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully

So, with that definition in mind, the creators of the material (music, movie, software) are the rightful owners. Music companies, studios, theaters, stores, websites, rental outlets, etc. are the authorized distributors of the material. The distributors of said materials have an obligation for a portion of their proceeds to go to the owners, be it through contractual agreements or purchase of a license to distribute the material. In other words, while they make a profit (the reason they are in business), they still must compensate the owner (their obligation). This is a revenue stream that is realized by the owner, be it a musical artist, an actor, movie studio, director, or software company.

When someone pirates this material, they are stealing. They are not compensating the material's rightful owner. People do not have a "right" to other people's property. It's that simple.

 

[mannish]

I never understood when Napster first came on the scene, their software was copyrighted. When makes sense , seeing they did not respect the CR of others.

 

[joejv4]

I never understood when Napster first came on the scene, their software was copyrighted. When makes sense , seeing they did not respect the CR of others.

Too funny! Ironic funny, AND "haha" funny. When you think about it, it took some serious cajones to copyright a service that was created for the sole purpose of infringing on other copyrights!!!!! I never thought about that, but now that you pointed it out I'm sitting here chuckling!!!