Monotheism

[jtwhite]

This is NOT an "is God real" debate!

I don't think this has been created before, but if it has, I'm sorry.

Monotheistic religions primarily consist of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I'd been thinking lately, most people who believe in these religions consider themselves to be under the same God. (e.g. A Christian believes in the same god a Muslim does.)

I'm very interested in this. I'd like to know your views on this.

 

[ichwar]

That is quite wrong. Muslims do not worship God as the Christians do, otherwise why would the Muslims be trying to kill Christians because of their belief. My religion makes it very clear that no other religions worship God.

 

[zen-r]

It's all about elitism.

"My god is better than your god" and "only our story book/ bible/ whatever can be correct, & all your story books/ bibles/ whatever must be wrong"

Of course, you're all wrong & there is no god at all. But that isn't the message religious types want to hear, so they continue to ignore the facts & cling to their hand-me-down beliefs.

That is quite wrong. Muslims do not worship God as the Christians do, otherwise why would the Muslims be trying to kill Christians because of their belief. My religion makes it very clear that no other religions worship God.

"do not worship God as the Christians do" - does not answer the question, as it merely says that that their method of worship is different, not that they believe in different fictitious Gods. You will have to try with a different answer, if you want to answer jtwhite's question.

"why would the Muslims be trying to kill Christians" - Lol. Yes, like the Christians don't also have a long & bloody history of wars, killing & murder themselves.

I seem to remember ichwar making the comment that it is necessary for the Israelies to kill the Palestinians over here; http://forums.x10hosting.com/off-to...ct-between-israel-palestine-2.html#post550570

This just shows how warped religion actually is, that different "faiths" are all about intolerances & nothing about "beliefs", & that whether people believe in the same imaginary god, or a different one, religion still amount to the same pile of ....nonsense.

 

[ichwar]

Once again, you present a flaw in your thinking. The Israelis are NOT Christians. They're just another nation that the Arabs are trying to over run.

 

[zen-r]

I never said that they were Christians.

I pointed out what you said about the killings.

 

[ichwar]

Anyone has a right to fight in self defense do they not? Maybe you'd let someone walk up to you and shoot you through the head in the name of peace, but you can't expect everyone to act that way.

 

[zen-r]

The conflict over there has nothing to do with self defence. It has to do with fighting over land, & the willingness to live with people of one's own faith, but not to live with people of the other faith.

Anyway, this is going off-topic.

 

[ichwar]

You're right. This is getting off topic so I shan't say any more on the war, but post what you just posted here over in the other thread and I'll answer it there.

 

[popedurell]

Of course, you're all wrong & there is no god at all.

I'd like to clarify something.
Atheists (I.E. you) believe that there is no God. In saying so, they believe that there is no Heaven or other form of afterlife. They also believe that consciousness, and the ability to think (the cause of which, I might add, has yet to be discovered), are a natural thing which has developed in us some time since we were little piles of sludge.

Based on these beliefs, atheists also then believe that when you die life just ends, and there is nothing more. Do you know what a deep, dreamless sleep feels like? Of course not, because you are not aware of it in any way. That is as close to "nothingness" as any human can ever feel (in life).
Have you considered what "forever" means?

All together, this adds up to the conclusion that life has no point, no purpose; that the universe and all existance is just some sick joke we must suffer through.

Late at night, I want you to think about what it would be like to NOT EXIST...forever. Imagine the feeling of KNOWING that you will never ever feel or think anything ever ever again after you die. Is this what atheists believe? Based on this sort of belief set, the only thing one could possibly do is build up some sort of legacy à la Napoleon or Hitler or Elvis or even Michael Jackson, and become a legend of sorts. Even that means nothing, because in a few thousand years humans will have gone extinct

I used to not believe in God, but after pondering I decided that if I kept that up I would go bat-**** insane (who is to say I haven't already? but I do feel a little more happy now) Now I no longer fear death, I just regard its eventuality with a sort of gentle sadness.

And another thing to clear up, Christians worship Christ, and God as the Father of Christ, something Muslims don't do.

 

[zen-r]

Thanks for that -NOT!

Not only are you trying to tell atheists what they think (instead of just telling us what you think) but you have completely ignored the original poster & the actual subject of this thread.

If you wish to post that stuff, kindly put it in the correct thread. This one will do you nicely ;

http://forums.x10hosting.com/crossfire/93828-do-you-believe-god.html

I note that you have explained your reason for believing in a god as per the usual one ie. you need there to be a god, for your sake, not because there is anything to actually show there really is one. This is the whole point. God is a man-made invention.

While you're there, perhaps you could try to answer the points & questions I made in my various posts towards the end of that thread. Not one person who believed in these imaginary gods managed it, or even attempted it. Why? Because religion is based on nonsense & no-one can justify it.

 

[jmcgowan]

Referring back to the original post and the questions being for comments on the three major monotheistic religions believing in the same god...

While this seems true on the surface, it's not quite true. What is true is that historically speaking, Christianity was based on Judaism and grew from their roots, so to speak. Also, Islam to a small degree is based on Christianity, in that they believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet of Allah, and so they grew from the roots of Christianity.

However, that's about the sum of the similarities between the three religions. Christianity states (at least the orthodox, mainstream Christianity) that Jesus is God. This is referred to as the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Since both Judaism and Islam deny this belief, their gods are different from the Christian God (the difference in capitalization is because I am a Christian and therefore believe that Jewish and Islam believers are wrong, however, that doesn't really apply to the question at hand...). To explain, the Christian God includes the person of Jesus, while the Jewish and Islam gods do not. I also don't think that Judaism and Islam worship the same god either, but I don't have any fancy arguments for that one.

 

[jtwhite]

So you're saying that Christianity is the only way to go? What about different types like Baptist, Free Will, etc?

I'm not totally sure what my stance is, so I can't really debate but I like to see what other people think about things.

 

[ichwar]

lol, my denomination is Reformed Southern Baptist. I still call my self a Christian too. Christian is a more broad term that covers the smaller equally valid denominations of Christianity. I however vehemently disagree with anyone who says that the Muslims are one of those denominations.

 

[jmcgowan]

jtwhite - as far as denominations go, I don't really claim any as my own. I've found that when it comes to the really important beliefs, I agree with many different denominations, and I disagree with almost every denomination on some small point or two. At the moment I'm attending a protestant chapel service (I'm deployed to Iraq) but back home I attend a mennonite church because I've found that it's beliefs are fairly well based on the Bible (and not just a denomination stance) and the congregation is very accepting of new people. In the past I've attended Baptist, United Methodist, Non Denominational, and many others.

Like ichwar says, most denominations can easily be group under broad umbrella terms. Protestant (a term I usually use to describe myself) basically means every denomination that isn't Catholic.

As for Christianity being the "only way to go" so to speak, I believe that this is exactly what the Bible teaches, so yes, I believe that Christianity is the only way to go. However, most everybody I know in real life will tell you that I am probably the last person to be pushy about it, and will usually only get into the subject if someone else starts asking questions. For example, one of my good friends right now is Pagan. He knows that I believe he's going to hell, and he's ok with that. We actually enjoy great conversations about religion without lowering ourselves to bashing each other or name calling.

 

[descalzo]

As for Christianity being the "only way to go" so to speak, I believe that this is exactly what the Bible teaches, so yes, I believe that Christianity is the only way to go.

But do you believe that the God you pray to is different than the God that Jews pray to?

Since monotheists believe that there is only one God, if you belive the Jews pray to a 'different God', they must be praying to a non-god.

But do you believe your God is the God of the Garden of Eden? the God of Noah and the Flood? the God of Moses and the Ten Commandments? the God who inspired David to write his Psalms? Is not that God the same God that Jews worship?

I can see Christians saying that Jews do not fully understand the nature of God and worship him incorrectly. But how can they say it is a different God?

 

[jmcgowan]

@descalzo - for that answer see my post at the top of page 2. I see your point of your last line, and to a point you're right. However, I look at the fact that Jews see God as not including the person of Jesus, whereas Christians believe that God includes Jesus, therefore making them different. It's kind of like the distant Aunt who sees you as the twelve year old you were when she last saw you, and your spouse sees you as the man that you are now. While the man is an extension of the 12 year old, they are essentially two different people, because your Aunt is denying the growth ever happened. (read: changes in how we know God, not that He's actually changed)

 

[jtwhite]

The bible says that Jews are God's chosen people. Did they do something incorrectly after that to make a disconnection or would their beliefs be accepted by God?

 

[deltavolt]

But do you believe that the God you pray to is different than the God that Jews pray to?

Since monotheists believe that there is only one God, if you belive the Jews pray to a 'different God', they must be praying to a non-god.

But do you believe your God is the God of the Garden of Eden? the God of Noah and the Flood? the God of Moses and the Ten Commandments? the God who inspired David to write his Psalms? Is not that God the same God that Jews worship?

I can see Christians saying that Jews do not fully understand the nature of God and worship him incorrectly. But how can they say it is a different God?

To add to that last point, couldn't that also apply to Christianity and Islam?

@descalzo - for that answer see my post at the top of page 2. I see your point of your last line, and to a point you're right. However, I look at the fact that Jews see God as not including the person of Jesus, whereas Christians believe that God includes Jesus, therefore making them different. It's kind of like the distant Aunt who sees you as the twelve year old you were when she last saw you, and your spouse sees you as the man that you are now. While the man is an extension of the 12 year old, they are essentially two different people, because your Aunt is denying the growth ever happened. (read: changes in how we know God, not that He's actually changed)

To extend my above question to you, wouldn't Christianity, then, be equivalent to the Aunt who saw you when you were 25 but denies that you're now 40(Islam)?

Also, isn't God perfect? How can perfection change? That would imply that he was not perfect before and, therefore, prove all 3 major monotheistic religions falls and nullify this entire topic.

 

[mdtforex]

I'd like to clarify something.
Atheists (I.E. you) believe that there is no God. In saying so, they believe that there is no Heaven or other form of afterlife.

This is an interesting statement. Ironically, I just commented on this at the end of the "Do You Believe in God" thread.

While I DO understand why a person wants there to be a god (actually, I want there to be a god who is really like a big brother), I don't find any reason why I can conclude that there is a god.

With this in mind, you mentioned that belief in god is connected to the afterlife. But how? How do we observe what the nature of the afterlife is? Why do we assume that god is involved in it? Or why do we believe that it even exists? Obviously, the fact the you (and me and all of us) are incapable of visualizing what it is to be nonexistant does not mean that it is not the ultimate fate of all living beings.

Here's why:

Late at night, I want you to think about what it would be like to NOT EXIST...forever.

I've thought about this MANY, MANY, MANY times, ever since I was a child. I often ask myself "How could I know I exist now, but then not know anything?" Ironically, this is the reality of existence. Can any of us define the point at which we came into conscious existence? We can mention early memories, but admittedly these are vague and do not define when we first KNEW that we existed.

Actually, I see it as being similar to conceptualizing the universe itself. Try to imagine infinity. Try to imagine that, outside of the universe, there is nothing. Or perhaps there are infinite other universes. Either way, it is not something that we can visualize.

Or try to imagine god. Try to imagine how god can be infinite, or how god can be all knowing. Try to imagine why god has desires, why god would wish to create anything. Try to imagine how you would feel if you were god and knew that there is no meaning to your existence outside of the meaning that you have created for yourself. How would that feel?

I cannot imagine any of these things. Obviously, our minds are not capable of VISUALIZING infinite life, space, time, or death. Unfortunately, belief in god does not eliminate this dilemma, since the existence of god would not necessitate the afterlife.
Edit:

The bible says that Jews are God's chosen people. Did they do something incorrectly after that to make a disconnection or would their beliefs be accepted by God?

That would depend on who you ask. Some Christians believe that the Jews are still god's chosen, but they are "backslidden". Some Christians believe that god removed this status of "chosen" after the jews as a nation rejected Jesus as the messiah. Of course, Orthodox Jews believe that they are the chosen ones.

Islam is best understood as being a competitor to Christianity. That is, both religions were solidified around the the same period in history. Christianity preceeding Islam as a general system of beliefs, but the modern new testament was not officially endorsed by the organized church until 397 AD. Both religions were solidified in terms of there respective canons within 160 years of each other.

Historical evidence indicates that Christian texts were not attempted to be canonized until about 100 years after the time that Jesus would have been alive (based upon accounts from the New Testament). In fact, it took nearly 350 years before a bible comprised of the new and old testaments was created. Meanwhile, Muslim texts were standardized into their current form (the Qur'an) within 22 years of Muhammad's death.

The differences between these faiths are substantial. The canons of Islam and Christianity mutually exclude one another from a strict theological perspective. That is, Allah is NOT the same as God the Father. Obviously Jesus is not recognized as divine by Muslims, but it must be pointed out that there were also early Christians who did not believe that Jesus was divine either, and there was much debate about the nature of christ for at least a century after Islam was founded. In fact, given the substantial lack of consensus amongst early Christians with regards to the authority of various religious texts, the nature of Christ, etc., one should not be surprised that Muslims have adopted a comparable perspective on Jesus' humanity as did the Arians.

But it would be inappropriate to say that Christians, Muslims, and Jews pray to the same god except in the sense that, if there is only one god, than those who pray to god are attempting to contact the same being. It is the role of religion to define the nature of god (and of course religions declare that god has revealed his truth to them already). In this respect, it is clear that while there are very similar characteristics with respect the personality of god between these groups, there are also major differences with respect to what god requires of mankind. From a theological perspective, these religions may be seen as being related, but not interchangeable.

 

[popedurell]

Christianity just means that one follows the teaching of Jesus Christ. God doesn't necessarily even have to come into it; plenty (most) of what Jesus taught (based on the assumption he existed) can easily be believed without believe in a God.

Also, if you consider Christ as part of the Holy Trinity, I.E. 1/3 of God (in layman's terms), then Christians do believe in a different God than members of other religions which are not Christian-based.