Warez or no Warez?

[zen-r]

All these people who use the stealing Ferrari example seem to have missed a couple of things:

If I steal a Ferrari, I am denying somebody else use of that Ferrari. Copying some software, however, does not deny the original user the use of that software.

If I borrow a Ferrari, I will cause wear and tear. If I borrow a film/music/software, I will in all likelihood not cause any damage to it.

So stealing/borrowing software/music/films etc is not the same as stealing something material. It may cause loss of sales, but not loss of the product itself.

Duh!

Nobody "missed" this point. Of course there is a difference. However, the similarity is the theft that is involved, the fact that the theft can have a financial or other negative impact on the victim, & that it is ILLEGAL.

I could try to explain this further to you but, as I said, why bother? Those who want to use free pirated software aren't interested in being told why it is wrong, because it doesn't suit their own needs to know.

I'm not saying don't do it, because I know that there are different levels of "wrong" -some that really aren't worth losing sleep over. When you/we break any law, we have to decide for ourselves the level of harm we may do to others on a case-by-case basis, & use our own judgement as to whether it is morally acceptable to ourselves. But if we get caught, the law is usually too inflexible to let us off because we have "excuses"!

 

[mattura]

Well I clearly didn't need to explain this to you. But some seemed to have forgotten.

Hey I never disagreed with you, in fact I largely agreed with your earlier post (but why bother explaining this to you - those who want to make a point will make a point, to suit their needs)

 

[Soki]

I think you are wasting your time arguing with sokii & the like.

Lmao! I like how you point me out. Woot! Atleast someone pays attention to my posts. ;]

I do not mean that it is ok and legal, because it isn't. I am just saying that if you do it and get caught, don't start to cry and complain. You are repsonsible for your own actions. Nothing can be done to stop warez except the people offering them just completely stop, but they won't because they like FREE stuff just like everyone else. Besides everyone has their own point of veiws as right and wrong.

 

[zen-r]

Sorry Sokii, I didn't mean to single you out there, it just seemed that you were coming down quite hard on peejay, who was trying to make what seemed like a fair point.

It appears most of us have at least reached some common ground ; that we know that using pirated software isn't really very fair to (most) authors, that it certainly isn't legal, & that some of us are still prepared to take our chances in certain situations ! :naughty:
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[Soki]

Sorry Sokii, I didn't mean to single you out there, it just seemed that you were coming down quite hard on peejay, who was trying to make what seemed like a fair point.

Actually I liked that you pointed me out. I didn't take it offensive. Unless you want to argue about that? Lol.

It appears most of us have at least reached some common ground ; that we know that using pirated software isn't really very fair to (most) authors, that it certainly isn't legal, & that some of us are still prepared to take our chances in certain situations ! :naughty:
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Yeah, I think your right.

 

[peejay]

Haha, you can rest assured that I'm not going to be offended - I like a good old bit of banter!

So stealing/borrowing software/music/films etc is not the same as stealing something material. It may cause loss of sales, but not loss of the product itself.

Ah, but you ARE stealing something material. It might not seem it to you when you are firing up utorrent, but if you download software, you are stealing money from the programmer / software company. Just as if I was stealing a Ferrari from a garage - okay, no-one suffers from loss of a material item, but the garage suffers financially. You yourself have admitted it may cause the loss of a sale - you don't get much more material than hard, cold cash.

The other aspect you have overlooked is that if someone downloads software illegally, while not just denying a sale, it is also detrimental to the survival of the software company. The only defense they have is to put the prices up, in order to ensure they still make enough money to develop the next piece of software. In other words, people who buy their software legitimately are forced to pay more for it because of piracy. Therefore, theft of Photoshop is not only financially damaging to Adobe, but also to legitimate users.

Something that pirates gleefully overlook is that there is no such thing as a victimless crime - when a crime takes place, someone else always suffers.

If you'll excuse the car simile again (but it is an ideal example), it is pretty much a worldwide phenomenon that millions of drivers go around without insurance (a victimless crime, surely?) - and that it is often reported that motor insurance has had to go up to cover this. So, I pay more for my insurance because someone else doesn't pay at all.

Very annoyingly in this world, it is the case that the honest have to foot the bill of the dishonest - even down to when they get caught and get sent to jail - the honest tax payer then has to fund their board and lodgings.

Back to the case in point, if I have to pay more for software because you download it for free, that does cause material loss - to me. As I said before, I would have far more respect for someone who says "I am a thief" than someone who says "It's not really theft because blah blah blah"

 

[mattura]

Well you make some fair points, but I still maintain that stealing software does not necessarily mean you are stealing money/causing loss of sales (hence the 'may')...the problem is that it can be very hard to tell whether this is the case or not. The Ferrari is a very obvious, definite theft (as there is a lack of a Ferrari in the garage), but sometimes software theft does not cause detriment.

Joe Bloggs downloads some software, but he doesn't want it so much that he would ever consider paying for it.
John Smith downloads software to try it out, and he will buy it later if he likes it.

Both of these situations are not resulting in a loss of sales, as has they not been able to download it, they would not have bought it. Therefore the software company does not lose money.

The reason the car insurers hike their prices (other than that they are b******s), is that people without insurance have accidents. They then have to make a payment. This does not happen with software and is a different situation. Software prices may be hiked to cover loss of sales, but where there is no loss, the company does not have a reason to do so.

Stealing software is still wrong and I don't agree with it. But it is not necessarily detrimental to the software company. People have stolen some of my software, and at first I was angry, but then I discovered that it got more use and publicity, which was what I wanted.

 

[zen-r]

...I like a good old bit of banter!...

Since you like the banter...I feel the need to "bat for the other side" for a moment! I think I had managed to get a general sort of agreement that they knew piracy was theft & illegal etc, but you are in danger of ramming it home so far as to swing the humble electorate back the other way!

To use your car theft reference, yes, I would rather people didn't steal at all, but I would also prefer that my car insurance went up to cover thefts/ lack of insurance etc, than have my own vehicle stolen directly. That is to say, there are differing degrees of severity of the crime. Theft from a large, wealthy organisation which then immediately covers their losses by getting all of their honest customers to pay a little extra in their policy usually has less financial & emotial impact on the victims than theft from a small organisation, or in the case of the car example, from an individual victim. Yes the overall losses are the same, but the impact is different.

...The only defense they have is to put the prices up, in order to ensure they still make enough money to develop the next piece of software...

I agree with your point, but this statement isn't really true. As anyone involved in selling something will know, there is a price versus sales graph. You can aim for high prices & low sales, or low prices & high sales. Sell for too little & you may sell lots but make no profit, equally, sell for too high a price & you sell so few that there is no profit. It is important that the seller finds the optimum price to maximise profits.

Thus, people here may argue that if the software houses were to lower prices instead of raise them, people would be more inclined to buy the product & support the authors. We all hate to feel we are being "ripped off" by greedy sellers. Theft/ piracy doesn't make it right, but unfortunately it's the way of the world. Only the strong will survive -those with good products & a good respect for their customers ! :spank:

Edit: While typing the above text, I notice that mattura got in first with his post - Point well made, sir!
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[mattura]

lol I guess it took a while to type!

You too, good sir!

 

[socialnu2]

How many of you have never ever downloaded one song from the internet ?
there are billions of songs downloaded in a year. perhaps even trillions.
are they going to fine all those people?
were talking about hundreds of millions of people.
There is much worse crime out there than petty internet fraud.

 

[Twinkie]

So going back to the real world, stealing a Ferrari isn't REALLY theft, as I couldn't afford to buy it, so they're not losing a sale? Like I said previously, it's nonsensical twaddle, and yet another pathetic excuse that a pirate uses to try to justify what he does.

Calm down Peejay. This is crossfire, everyone is supposed to express a well thought out opinion about the topic, not about other people's posts. If this was a topic about raping little boys, then I would not argue. If you do not use warez, that's good for you.

 

[peejay]

Calm down Peejay. This is crossfire, everyone is supposed to express a well thought out opinion about the topic, not about other people's posts. If this was a topic about raping little boys, then I would not argue. If you do not use warez, that's good for you.

Oh, I'm perfectly calm - all I am doing is picking holes in the argument that using warez in wrong, as it is theft (irrespective of whether you can afford the software or not) and it does impact on the honest users.

 

[zen-r]

...all I am doing is picking holes in the argument that using warez in wrong...

I think you might want to re-phrase that, unless you have now taken to arguing with your own earlier comments (we all get that way eventually -it's called getting old! )
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[galaxyAbstractor]

if you are under 18 and use it for educational purpose, I would think it should be legal, but then only if you can prove you are a student. Like I am going in a computer orientated school, we get Autodesk maya and adobe design suite for free, but we can't use them at home because it is licensed to the network in school.

Also, you should have some knowledge before you start school because it will be a lot easier then.

Sooo, I do download, but only for educational purpose. When I get a job/money/later, I may buy them legally

 

[Fearghal]

My Anti-virus software goes mad when I try to go on cracks. In fact McAfee even tries to stop me!

Most software I dont download comes with a pre-installed crack as i usally just use p2p .

I only get cracks for things at outrageous prices. Im only 15 and im not paying $700 or whatever it is for photo shop which i uninstalled after about 2 days.

I can honestly say everything on my PC at this moment in time is legal.

 

[RossSchVle]

I pay for most my software, but some is just too expensive like what normal person can afford the adobe web professional suite, auto desk and a pc

 

[peejay]

I can't afford them - which is why I don't use them. Like with most things, there are cheaper alternatives

 

[w4k3upn0w]

IMO, programs are expensive. If you are using these programs and making money, such as.. a web designer or graphics art etc and you are not buying the programs, then you are being a crook. I use cracked, patched and retail programs but only for educational purposes and I do not profit from using any of the programs, this leaves us with the alternative of using open source programs which is ok but I find some of the best programs are indeed the commercial retail programs such as Sony Vegas, PhotoShop, PaintShop pro and other programs. IMO, if you can't afford all of these programs, I am one of those people who can not afford them, I will grab them from sites that make available, I do also use p2p sites to grab a few songs or a movie here and there. I am not the internet police but IMO, if you think about it, these developers are making their money because they make one product and sell it over and over again and that has to be pretty profitable, it's like a gift that keeps on giving and these programers should not complain because there are enough people buying them and this includes a large ammount of students although they get a discount, they are still buying. Bill Gates already said he did not care anymore about people using illegal WIN OS because he understands that not everyone can afford it. Again there are some very nice free programs such as VirtualDub and so on. If there was no way to get these commercial programs cracked, the poor would not use them and they would end up promoting open source with a passion and this would hurt the commercial developers even more because if people are stealing your software, it means it is good and you will get good reviews and besides, not everyone knows how to find warez programs nor do they know what to do with them once they get them, you would be surprised at how many people can barely even log in and get on line, let alone understand how a keygen or a patch might work. lol

 

[zen-r]

...If there was no way to get these commercial programs cracked, the poor would not use them and they would end up promoting open source with a passion and this would hurt the commercial developers even more because if people are stealing your software, it means it is good and you will get good reviews and besides, not everyone knows how to find warez programs nor do they know what to do with them once they get them, you would be surprised at how many people can barely even log in and get on line, let alone understand how a keygen or a patch might work...

With all the money you're saving by stealing software, you might like to splash out on a few full-stops. An occasional new sentence never hurt anyone!
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[Twinkie]

How many people here have had their computers destroyed or harmed by infected warez? Anyone ever hacked?